The New York Times is breathlessly reporting that the CIA might have used force in interrogating high-level al-Qaeda suspects.
To which the reaction should be duh!
It’s been known for some time that we’re doing everything we can short of abject torture to stop terrorist attacks. In the case of Khalid Sheik Mohammed, dozens of attacks worldwide have been stopped because of information we’ve gotten from him. Had "softer" measures been taken, thousands or even tens of thousands could have been killed in those attacks.
I’m not an absolutist on torture. I don’t see torturing someone as a prima facie wrong provided that such actions can save lives. Use of torture should be rare and only used when absolutely necessary, however, it should remain an option on the table if the greater good demands it. If someone has planted a nuclear weapon in London or New York and the only way to find and defuse it is to beat the crap out of some terrorist, the greater good obviously lies in doing what it takes to save those millions of lives.
In the case of Khalid Sheik Mohammad this principle is doubly applicable. First, he has information that can save lives, and there’s a reasonable expectation that some form of duress could produce leads that would save thousands of lives. Secondly, he’s a terrorist. Terrorists are not protected under the Geneva Convention. The Geneva Convention covers paramilitary and guerilla forces so long as they abide by the same rules as regular forces. al-Qaeda certainly does not, which is why al-Qaeda detainees don’t have to be treated under the rules of the Geneva Convention. The whole point of the Convention is to actively encourage forces to follow certain rules in combat – offering protection under the Convention to those who do not abide by the Convention goes against the whole point of the exercise.
In a time of war, such measures are simply necessary for the greater good. The New York Times has been blasting the Bush Administration for not doing enough to stop the September 11 attacks – now when the Bush Administration is taking actions that have already prevented many other attacks and may prevent yet more the Times has little more than criticism.
UPDATE: Captain’s Quarters has more on the topic, including the relevant citations from the Convention itself.
The liberal media really is anti-American.
How anyone can possibly object to any methods being used on Khalid Sheik Mohammed to extract information is beyond me.
I really hope more and more people realize this as the press gets more and more blatantly anti-American. I hope the people punish the Democrats at the ballot box in November, and I hope they punish the media with their remotes, their subscription cancellations, and their letters and phone calls.
“How anyone can possibly object to any methods being used on Khalid Sheik Mohammed to extract information is beyond me.”
Perhaps because civilized people have civilized means of dealing with such individuals. Charles Manson and Tim McVeigh are monsters as well, but they were subject to the courts and to a certain number of rights as Americans. We should apply the same standard of rights to all human beings, even if they don’t deserve them.
As for the media being anti-American, well, I don’t see it. Anti-Bush Administration, perhaps, and I’ll second them there. But I don’t have to like Dubya to love my country.
Here’s my problem with that line of logic – would we accept that Khalid Sheik Mohammad’s rights trump the lives of thousands of people? Because of information we’ve gained from him, dozens of terror attacks have been stopped, including attacks that would have very likely been worse than September 11. At the very least it allowed us to stop a "dirty bomb" attack on Washington D.C.
I’m not an absolutist on human rights. Were we in an ideal world where monsters like KSM didn’t exist, I would accept torture as immoral and unnecessary. However, given who KSM is and what he was trying to do, I don’t lose sleep over the idea of him being tortured.
Besides, it’s not just America that has been protected by the information we’ve gained, but Europe and Asia as well.
Yes, but Jay, do you believe we should be allowed to torture American citizens too?
Torture isn’t terribly useful for interrogation, since it can be used to make people claim anything. I’m no moral idealist either, but I do believe in applying a certain standard of rights, and I’m pretty sure we can get what we need without getting out the Spanish Inquisition. Though nobody would expect it…
Provided that A:) there’s a reasonable belief that many lives were in danger and they couldn’t wait to use other methods and B:) there was some kind of oversight.
However, for those covered under the US Constitution or the Geneva Convention, such things would likely be illegal and would be struck down by the Supreme Court. Note however that both FDR and Lincoln along with Bush suspended normal constitutional process for persons deemed “enemy combattants” in times of war.
Also, the kind or torture we’re using in these cases isn’t necessarily based on physical pain. (We’re not beating the crap out of these guys, as tempting as that may seem at times.) It’s usually some kind of psychological discomfort – bright lights, shaking, etc. Physical torture is very ineffective, while psychological coersion tends to be fairly effective. Certainly it has been in KSM’s case.
Again, this sort of thing should be the exception rather than the rule, but it would also be irresponsible of our government to allow millions to die just because we wanted to pussyfoot around.
“I don’t see torturing someone as a prima facie wrong provided that such actions can save lives”
Every terrorist in the world agrees with you, Jay.
The methods you’re talking about were used by the soviets. Remenber them? The enemy of freedom, the worst torturers, the lie lovers. They would be very proud to see that not all of their values are gone, and are now in use by the US.
Nothing can justify such atrocities. this is the only thing we have left to legitimise our actions (ethical morality), and now, thanks to Bush.inc, westerners don’t even have international law and sanity on our side. Thank you. Que Dieu blesse l’Amérique.