Libertarian Samizdata puts Bastille Day in perspective for everyone without pulling any punches.
The storming of the Bastille on July 14, 1789 was an event more important in the mythology of the French Revolution than in the actually history of it (far from freeing imprisioned patriots, the inmates were four forgers, two lunatics, and the Marquis de Sade), but it was indeed a portent of the blood soaked egalitarian horror that was to follow.
So yes, that was the perfect comment to remind us that not only is France, like most countries, rooted in slaughter and horror in the distant historical past… but that recent outrages (giving aid and comfort to mass murderers) will just be forgotten in France and millions of French people will sing the national anthem and feel good about the people who lead them. The same people who gave Ratko Mladic and Radovan Karadzic a free pass for slaughtering thousands in Srebrenica and tens of thousands elsewhere in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Vive la France.
Vive la France indeed.
(Here’s more on Chirac assisting convicted war criminal Ratko Mladic – who still remains at large.
Indeed, the French Revolution marked the beginning of a chaotic next 100 years for France. The first republic only lasted till 1799 when Napoleon took over. After the first French Empire fell apart at Waterloo, France was once again rule by a Bourbon in 1815, and they would have to revolt again in 1830 to get rid of Charles X, but the constitutional monarch Louis-Phillipe would follow. France would have another revolution in 1848, and the 2nd republic would last a whopping 4 years, before Napoleon III would declare a coup and lead the 2nd Empire. After France’s defeat in the Franco-Prussian war, the Parisians would rise up against the government in protest of the harsh armistice and establish the Paris Commune. That had to be crushed by Adolph Thiers before the 3rd Republic could be established and crushing the Paris Commune was a bloody affair. The Third Republic itself almost fell to the despotic General Ernest Boulanger in 1890 (who in what is still a mysterry to students of history fled at the height of his power). The French Revolution was important for France and Europe. But it would take 3 more revolutions, 5 more monarchs, and 80 years before France would establish a republic that could be called democratic and long lasting. Still I contend it is a day to celebrate. Our nation’s independance did not bring about freedom for all for another 100 years (and after that we still had problems). But it is important to critically analyze these things.
when you want to set up a new type of government, it takes time. The french revoltion took longer than the ameican one, because the historical grounds, the traditions and the social structure of the monarchy was deep, and couldn’t be removed from one day to another after 2000 years of reign. The U.S didn’t have this heritage to get ride of.
Which remind me of a politician group, that want to build a democracy in two years (according to the last statement of Mr Bremer) in a country that never had any before, where most of the population is illiterate( who cares about the irakis citizens abilities to read a vote ballot anyway?), and where progressissm is seen as evilish…
good luck for this project.
…where most of the population is illiterate…
According to CIA World Fact Boook, 44% of Iraqis are literate. Do you think that’s a higher or a lower rate then the literacy rate of the early French democracy? American?
thanks for the precise data, but 44% still represents “most of the population”!!
it probably is a higher rate than france or the U.S 200 years ago (no one has any data here, right?), but culture will be the crucial issue of acceptance of a democratic system. And, as you know, their culture can be said to be different…preachers are more listen to than public newspaper readers!
I find that arguments that the Iraqis are somehow less fit for democracy than others to be a very subtle form of racism. The argument is no more than ‘those savages just aren’t smart enough to rule themselves.’ The principles of democracy are based on simple concepts like the rule of law, an independent judiciary, and checks and balances between branches of the government. Iraq has every potential to have both a functioning democracy and a vibrant civil society – but only if the foundations for such a system are put into place.
thanks for the precise data, but 44% still represents “most of the population”!!
Huh?
my mistake on the phrasing:
if 44% of the population is literate – as the CIA confirms – this makes most of the population illiterate = hard to build a democracy in 2 years.
Vincent, no one said its going to be easy 🙂
back to jay’s comment:
I’m not saying that Irakis are not able of democracy. I’m saying that any population living under dictatorship for 30 years is less able to trust a government, and public institutions in general, as the collapse of USSR proved us: democracy is not really doing good in russia and ex-members. I think the iraki population will especially not welcome this change brought in by missiles, and imposed by military means from a foreign country (without UN backing).
BUT, the most commun form of racism is ethnocentrism, which I believe the Americans (and western european countries in the past) are doing by imposing democracy. This form of government is definitely not accepted as the best one all around the world. Some cultures rely more on guiding individuals than free society for all. That’s just the way it is. Maybe you don’t see them (at least when it helps to get your point), but there are differences between cultures and populations. Racism is not to assess these differences, but to rank them in an order: YOU used the word “savages”, not me.
I still believe it would be nice to have a democracy in Irak, but this does not require 2 years only: you need to learn to crawl before you learn to walk.
now tell the american people they are to pay 4 bn/month for the next ten years!! They gonna love it.
…which I believe the Americans (and western european countries in the past) are doing by imposing democracy.
Ok…
This form of government is definitely not accepted as the best one all around the world…
The only way to find out wether what you assert is true or not is to take a vote – which in itself very democratic, no? 🙂
YOU used the word “savages”, not me.
You implied it in your post and still do so in the one I am responding to. You said:
Some cultures rely more on guiding individuals than free society for all.
So basically they are sheep who are born to follow? Any society that’s guided by individuals is guided by force. So by proxy you are saying that they are meant to be ruled by force? And if that is so, then what’s all the fuss about America using its force?
now tell the american people they are to pay 4 bn/month for the next ten years!!
Either people complain that America is selfish and does too little for others or there is a sudden concern for the American tax payer. Weird.
“Any society that’s guided by individuals is guided by force. “(don’t use the same typo for quotes and made-up sentences, it’s confusing)
ever heard about Gandhi? about “organic” societies? Some social structures don’t require the use of force, like religious societies for example, where the leader is listened to by members without coercision (maybe you see the mormons as sheeps?).
“Either people complain that America is selfish and does too little for others or there is a sudden concern for the American tax payer.”
I don’t consider this money to be spent for “others”: The money is given to the military-industrial complex by interested officials (cheney and friends)in order to make money, not to help “others”(for ex: petroleum ‘s extraction is possible again in Irak, but electricity and water are not working yet). So yes, it is spent for selfish reasons (of those industrials and officials), and the american tax payer are paying for that(and thus are a matter of concern). I (and france and frenchmen I think) never blamed the american people for this war: only the government is responsible. That’s why you can support the population, and blame the leaders. Population’s support was not that high before war (50% if no UN backup according to gallup the day before GWII). This figures are even biased because the government was LYING to push the people to accept the war!!!!!
(please wait a few days before answering on this “irak/niger’gaffe” issue: The AIEA just requested from UK the evidences (the real ones this time: btw, I wonder why would you give fake documents instead of real ones to the UN??? what happens when a nation is lying to the UN?) that are the one proving this yellowcake purchase. The whole story will be cleared up soon.)
Vincent,
…ever heard about Gandhi?
What about Ghandi? While you hear all these great things about Ghandi in the Western media and schools, I’ld suggest you check with Hindus and Sikhs. You’ld be surprised, but there’s a lot of animosity towards him.
…like religious societies for example…
Bad example. A religious society (including mormons) is not a self contained state with its own economy, military, foreign policy, etc. Can you give a *real* example from today where such a state exists?
…given to the military-industrial complex by interested officials (cheney and friends)
Did you ever read Gerring’s speeches given prior to US’s involvement in WW2? He was claiming that US was being pushed into war by the profiteers.
petroleum ‘s extraction is possible again in Irak, but electricity and water are not working yet
Unless you are an engineer who can compare the electrical grid in Iraq with its oil infrastructure – you can’t really make a valid comparison. Saddam’s electric grid was not designed to efficiently bring electricity to the Iraqi people. It was wired by neighborhoods so as to make it easy to cut power off in sections (to control people I guess).
I (and france and frenchmen I think) never blamed the american people for this war: only the government is responsible.
That’s silly.
Population’s support was not that high before war (50% if no UN backup according to gallup the day before GWII).
50% is pretty high.
This figures are even biased because the government was LYING to push the people to accept the war!!!!!
Sorry. But you are trying to pass off your opinion as fact here. Also, why is it that conspiracy books that claim that 9/11 never happened (it was the US gov’t who sent missiles into Manhattan) enjoy such a success in France? More of a success then in any other country in europe? Coincidence?
and so what is your point?the french did 9/11? all frenchmen hate the US?
This is stupid and wrong, and I am a living example of this lie.
BTW, the “9/11 conspiracy”theory never claimed it was missiles. the theory was that the planes were guided by devices within the WTC, which coud explain how lee harvey Oswald could shot from far, drunk, with a very old gun right in the head -oops sorry- how terrorists with just a few hours of learning on a simulator could be so good (the width of a building at airplane’s speed is like a noodle in the chinese sea).anyway…
France love democracy, freedom and liberty (the statue remenber?it’a gift from us!!). that is why I love the US, and I hate Bush.This is why I stand against the “with or against us” theory, the “axis of evil” theory, the “war on terror” (when you see the success of the “war on drugs”, you’d better declare peace with terrorists…), the patriotic act, the patriotic day, and else. I don’t want the US to become a land of fear, of inequality, and of racism, and this is what Bush’s policy is tending to (even if he might not want that to happen)
and so what is your point?the french did 9/11? all frenchmen hate the US?
You draw your own conclusion. Facts remain that conspiracy theory books that claim US gov’t killed its own citizens on 9/11 are enjoying a great success in France. A greater success then anywhere else, I’ll add. I don’t hear any french demonstrating against the mullahs of Iran, how come? I thought “France love democracy, freedom and liberty… “. Apparently France is very selective as to whom it chooses to oppose and in this selection process only one thing is constant – opposing US. You still didn’t answer as to why France did not consult the international community/UN when it decided to invade the Ivory Coast. Why is this a non issue? Why is France supporting arab terorrists -Hamas/Hezbollah/etc?
how terrorists with just a few hours of learning on a simulator could be so good..
Please do go on.. So who do you think really did it?
France love democracy, freedom and liberty (the statue remenber?it’a gift from us!!).
I find it rather interesting that any time you ask someone as to what makes France a good friend to US they bring up the statue of liberty. The fact that you have to go back centuries to find something positive speaks for itself, no?
As for freedom – care to explain this? Is this the type of freedom that France loves?
As for the patriotic act, the patriotic day, and else. – care to explain this? You were saying..?