Michael Novak has a good piece in NRO on the conflict of values between the North America and Europe.
Forgive me for not being more diplomatic. This is a moment in which anti-American propaganda, most of it false, is so powerful in Europe that it is stirring in America the need to be more frank with our European friends. "The American street" is out of patience with France, in particular, and anti-American journalism in general. A few on the American left — Bill Clinton was one — do see European social democracy as morally advanced. Observing Europe, however, most Americans see few signs of European moral superiority. On the contrary, they see moral decline.
Novak finds that Europe is nowhere near competitive with America on the battlefield. American military technology is lightyears ahead of that of Europe – not just in firepower, but in command and control and logistics. If a hypothetical European Rapid Reaction Force wanted to go to Liberia, they would be dependent on the US to get them there because the Europeans have virtually no military airlift capability. The massive disparities in terms of military strength is only the tip of the iceberg, however.
Not to be less than candid, Americans deeply hold that their own experiment in liberty is morally superior to the ways of the Old World. They have their own views about European perfidies. They think that today’s Europeans are shirkers, who do not work enough hours per day, or week, or year; take too many holidays off; and constantly want something for nothing. Traveling in Europe is frequently a disappointment to Americans, when some form of transport or other is rendered unusable by hostile and arrogant strikers, normally protecting some ancient privilege of their own, and utterly heedless of the common good. Europeans seem to Americans always to be defending their "rights" (i.e., privileges), in a fundamentally self-centered spirit, each protecting his own self-interest, while carrying signboards on which appear professionally painted slogans about high principle. To Americans, Europeans seem risk-averse, slow to experiment with the new, usually quicker with dozens of reasons why something cannot be done than with an obvious and open willingness to give a new idea a try. Europeans seem obsessed with the familiar, the comfortable, and the secure.
There’s far more good material in Novak’s piece than I could quote – suffice it to say that he’s on to an important issue here. The interests of Western Europe and America have traditionally been close. Leaders like Konrad Adenauer of West Germany realized the absolute importance of working with America to forever remove the spectre of Soviet domination from the European continent.
Yet now Europe wants to exercise control of America. Rather than rising to meet the challenge of America, Europe wants to constrain America through international treaties. They want to tie down American military power while simultaneously being dependent upon it for peacekeeping in places like Bosnia and Liberia. They want to throttle the American economy while demanding that they be given an open market for their goods. (A privilege that they do not extend to the desperately needy people of Africa.)
Behind this cloak of morality is the desire for power. The desire for Europe to overtake the United States. The EU’s insistance on international law isn’t for the good of the world, it’s for their own good. The American street is angry as hell at Europe. They don’t see them as moral superiors, but as selfish, greedy, and cowardly "weasels". The effects of this conflict will be far worse for Old Europe (mainly France and Germany, as Spain, Italy, and Eastern Europe have been staunch and upright allies to the United States in the war on terrorism) than it will be for the United States.
Hrm, funny that Europe can be such a bunch of lazy pussies on one hand, and on the other, top out consistently greater than America in terms of both quality of life and percentage of population below the poverty line, at least for some countries, like the Scandinavian nations.
Maybe Europe works less hours because they recognize you shouldn’t have to work 60 hours a week to barely afford basic-level housing?
Not to mention the wealth of culture and history in the Old World. But I guess Americans are too busy working and bombing to care about that shit, huh?
First of all, what is meant, exactly, by “the American street?” Is that supposed to mean the average, every-day American, because if it does I think you are way off base, as is Mr. Novak. The arguments he puts forth are not luminous, but ludicrous. How does military power equal moral superiority, first of all? The two don’t connect at all and, in fact, seem logistically at odds.
So Americans are “disappointed” when traveling in Europe because their united, unionized and powerful proletariot are demanding a decent life? Ha! Too bad their fight for justice ruins our vacations because we all know that Europe is simply America’s playground. They have lots of old stuff there, right? While Europeans are defending their rights in a “self-centered” spirit, look at what is happening to workers in the U.S.- overtime cuts, rising healthcare costs, abuse after abuse aimed at raising corporate profits and hurting blue collar workers and increasing and increasing and increasing the gap between the haves and the have-nots. I think the downtrodden in America could take a lesson from Old Europe and start standing up for themselves. You can deride the Democratic Party for being hypocritical rich folk who don’t truly represent the poor, but what would you do if the poor themselves stopped being so accepting of their treatment and started making a fuss?
Also I am wondering, do you think that having only one superpower is good for the world? Isn’t this the situation in which powergrabs and instability run rampant and lead to large conflicts? Why are you afraid of a world rival in peaceful and stable Europe? Are you afraid they will force us to legalize drugs and give women free childcare? Just wondering…
…percentage of population below the poverty line, at least for some countries, like the Scandinavian nations.
What a lame comparison. US has been accepting immigrants non stop. You can’t say the same for Scandinavian nations.
if the poor themselves stopped being so accepting of their treatment
There are plenty of these “poor” who did exactly that – they became middle class or rich.
Also I am wondering, do you think that having only one superpower is good for the world?
I’ll give you an example. If we didn’t push for the war in 1991. Kuwait would still be a part of Iraq. Nobody ever does anything militarily without our involvement. That tells you something about how the world works. Would Germany invade Poland in 1939 if we were the only superpower back then?
So the Scandanavian nations have begun to limit immigration- is it your point that that is why more people live above the poverty line in these countries? What does it say about America, the “land of opportunity”, if you are blaming our high poverty rate on immigrants?
I guess all those union workers in Europe ought to shut up and get better jobs- become middle class or rich instead of trying to improve wages. If everyone did that we would have nobody left willing to do very necessary blue collar jobs.
I am confused by your final argument for the U.S. as the only superpower. It doesn’t make sense- the U.S. was completely isolationist during WWII although already a superpower- we were not contrained by anyone from acting on Hitler’s invasion. It didn’t stop Hussien from trying- why would our looming presence have deterred Hitler?
The unions in Europe are doing more to line their own pockets than to help European workers. European unions frequently employ violence against people who attempt to limit their political power. They are irresponsible and have essentially held positive reforms at gunpoint.
Let’s illustrate this with a hypothetical. You’re a single mother in Parisian suburb. You have one child at age 10.
You can’t go to work because the metro and the buses are held up by a transportation strike. You can’t send your child to school because the teachers are on strike.
You’d like to send your child to a better school, but because if you work more than 35 hours per week you get fined or even jailed. You can’t save much because so much of your check goes to taxes that you barely have anything left at the end of the month. What little you get from the government barely makes up for that.
You’re afraid to walk on the streets because of gangs of violent and radical Muslim immigrants who attack women who walk without covering themselves completely. You pray that your apartment isn’t robbed, or you and your child isn’t killed or worse.
That hypothetical is all too common in the dark underbelly of European life. It is the result of a system in which the privileged few loot the citizenry while proclaiming it all for their own good.
Exactly how does any of this represent the needs or desires of the common person? Exactly where is the benefit to a system where your life is held hostage to the complaints of the few? Exactly how is it so wonderful that kids are kept out of schools and initiative and hard work is met by fines and jail time?
The answer is that it doesn’t. The European welfare state is a sham, a facade, and scam that is robbing the future to line the pockets of bureaucrats and union leaders.
Kerri, immigration does play a significant role in America’s unnecessarily high rates of poverty. In a perfect world, we could be a “land of opportunity” for the entire globe, but immigration inherently works to suppress wage levels in low-skill and medium-skill employment. That’s not to say I don’t support a moderate annual infusion of immigrants, but coming from an area with a high concentration of meatpacking and agricultural labor, I can definitely say that the expansive 1990s-era immigration quotas did increase poverty. The America envisioned by open-border ideologues would be an absolute disaster for the working class….far worse than anything even Republicans could commandeer with their endless onslaught of anti-labor and deregulation dirty tricks.
And Jay, it’s interesting how you apply a “we must fight for our rights” mindset when it comes to national security, but wish to deny workers from doing the same to protect their financial security. You suggest that European unions should abandon these efforts as they may inconvenience single moms who want to send their kids to school on the bus and can’t because of a bus workers’ strike. This level of sacrifice for the betterment of the society is unacceptable in your view, yet sacrificing an 18-year-old son to battle in a “pre-emptive war” is perfectly fine, as is a $4 billion monthly price tag to deal with the aftermath of that war. I know you’re gonna fire back with how these strikes damage rather than enhance the long-term economies of Europe. Even if that were true, are you suggesting that the minor inconvenience of a single mother unable to send her kid to school on the bus is too much of a sacrifice for economic upward mobility in any scenario? Seems to me the preservation of a strong nation is as much dependent on economic strength as national security.
And considering that more than half of French and German workers are in unions, their strikes represent more than just “the few” as you erroneously claim.
I admire European workers for recognizing that sacrifice and an iron fist are needed to preserve their quality of life, even though I don’t necessarily agree with the frequency they flex their muscle.
So the Scandanavian nations have begun to limit immigration-
Begun to limit? Our whole nationa was founded by immigrants and immigrants did not cease coming here since its creation.
is it your point that that is why more people live above the poverty line in these countries?
Uh. Yea. Immigrants are usually poor. Its easier when you are born into family that’s been here quite a few generations. If you are in Scandinavia you might be living in a house that goes back 6 generations, etc.
If everyone did that we would have nobody left willing to do very necessary blue collar jobs
People who choose to get ahead – do so. Those who don’t – work blue collar jobs.
why would our looming presence have deterred Hitler?
If there was a Hitler today, we would wack him in a second if he tried anything (same way we kicked Iraq out of Kuwait).
"Even if that were true, are you suggesting that the minor inconvenience of a single mother unable to send her kid to school on the bus is too much of a sacrifice for economic upward mobility in any scenario?"
The unions aren’t producing upward economic mobility, they’re fighting to keep perks that prevent workers from earning extra money, give perks to people who don’t need them, and drain productivity and economic expansion.
It’s more than a minor inconvenience, it’s a major disruption to life. When you can’t get to work, you can’t get your kid to school, and you can’t work extra hours to earn more, that’s not a minor inconvenience that’s a bloody disaster.
The unions in Europe don’t represent the real needs of workers. They are perfectly willing to sacrifice people like my hypothetical single mother in order to expand their own political influence and line their pockets.
The prevalence of union membership has little to do with popularity and everything to do with the fact that union membership is required to get a job in Europe. Without joining the union, you cannot get a job, whether you agree with them or not.
Let’s put it this way. Imagine if in the United States you had to join the GOP to get a job. If you were not a card-carrying member of the GOP you couldn’t find a job, and if you were lucky enough to do so you’d be beaten or harrassed. Furthermore, the GOP was actively beating anyone who didn’t agree with their ideology, and just shut down the entire city of Minneapolis because the Democrats want to increase spending on welfare by a few percent. People are dying in hospitals because the ambulance drivers are on strike, and thousands of people who work in the city can’t get to their jobs because the busses aren’t running.
You’d scream bloody murder if this happened – yet you seem to find it perfectly acceptable for this to be true for millions of European workers. There’s an obvious double standard here, and its one that cuts to the heart of the issue. The unions in Europe are acting irresponsibly and need to have their profoundly antidemocratic practices limited.
“People who choose to get ahead – do so. Those who don’t – work blue collar jobs.”
It’s just this sort of garbage that proves conservatives are either incapable of comprehending the division of labor or else are so filled with hate or apathy towards people who don’t wear a tie to work that they are determined to undermine their humanity one way or another. Whatever the case may be, both the functional economy’s nature and human nature ensures that the services of blue-collar workers will always be necessary. Even if everyone in the nation earned a Ph. D. as a means of “choosing to get ahead”, the need for store clerks, janitors, food processing workers and steelworkers would still exist. This makes it harder for conservatives to justify their ongoing verbal and legislative assault on the working class as them “deserving a life of poverty”.
If only trailer park Republicans had a sense of how deeply conservatives deplore them. If only they would read the hostile propaganda spewed about them by people like yourself and the legions of right-wingers excluding them from their latest tax giveaway on the premise that they “don’t pay taxes.” I hope Republicans continue to publicly spew the invective you do about the worthlessness of people who either work a certain job conservatives despise or have a certain level of education that conservatives despise. If this uninformed sector of the electorate had a chance to find out only half of what the party of Lincoln really thinks of them, it’s hard to figure another Republican ever being elected again in many states of the union.
It’s just this sort of garbage that proves conservatives are either incapable of comprehending the division of labor or else are so filled with hate
*yawn*. Here we go again. Mark, my family came here with 2 bags per person and under $1k (4 of us). For the first few years my mother worked for $3 an hour, and my dad made $5 (for 4 of us). We were not on welfare. Few years later, their situtation increased a bit. They were able to put my brother and I through college. Now, its been 14 years that we are here. They are now upper middle class and are home owners. My brother makes twice what both of them combined make, and I am doing ok as well. So spare me your incapable of comprehending the division of labor lecture.
Their story is not unique, all of our friends were in the same boat (hoho! no pun intended)
and all of them did well for themselves, put their kids through college and now their kids are doing very well as well.
or apathy towards people who don’t wear a tie to work that they are determined to undermine their humanity one way or another.
Why should I care if somebody makes a certain decision in their life? If you choose not to invest hard work into advancing yourself, that’s fine. That’s your choice. If you choose a position that is personally rewarding, but doesn’t pay that much – again, that’s your decision. Has nothing to do with humanity. Let people take responsibilities for their actions.
Even if everyone in the nation earned a Ph. D. as a means of “choosing to get ahead”, the need for store clerks, janitors, food processing workers and steelworkers would still exist.
That’s a hypothetical, but if it happens we can always let some people in from the outside to take those jobs.
If only trailer park Republicans had a sense of how deeply conservatives deplore them.
Deplore? “Hate”? This is all in your head. The only “hostile propoganda” I see here is from you.
Right on Mark. In immigration I find a subtle dicotomy that I was trying to capture and was met with a big “DUH”! An influx of labor will supress wages, yes, but why should the legal wage limit be that of poverty? SOMEBODY needs to do the dirty work and is it right that those relegated to that position also be forced to claw and scramble their way through life? I was willing to look on the bright side of conservativism until this debate when it became clear to me that Monkey at least has a huge contempt for the working class that I find repulsive.
it became clear to me that Monkey at least has a huge contempt for the working class
What contempt? What are you people talking about? Quote my alleged “contempt”.
Well then, let’s just lock up our borders and not let anyone in, shall we?
Ideologues on both the right and the left love to argue that we should just retreat to Fortress America and disengage with the rest of the world, despite the fact that history says that such a strategy is suicidal. If immigration was so disruptive to the economy, the United States should have collapsed years ago. If immigrants were going to take American jobs, unemployment would be over 10%.
Yet the economy is growing, albeit slightly, and unemployment is high, but only slightly due to immigration.
The same sense of racism and xenophobia runs through both the extreme anti-immigrant arguments of the right and left. Why, if we let all those dark-skinned people in, they’ll take jobs from hard-working (white) Americans. Except in general, those hard-working Americans tend not to want the kind of jobs that immigrants tend to do.
Furthermore the job market is not a zero-sum game. Immigration doesn’t take jobs away, rather reasonable amounts of immigration fuels economic expansion. A wide labor pool means that businesses that don’t yet exist have an opportunity to fill positions that don’t yet exist.
Moreover, immigration is good for immigrants. You know what, given the choice between working as a migrant laborer for pennies in Mexico and working for minimum wage in the United States, I know damn well what I’d choose. Even the "working poor" in America have a lifestyle that is lightyears ahead of most other countries, which explains why thousands of people risk their lives each and every year to get here.
Now, illegal immigration is another matter. I fully support cracking down on illegal immigration to the fullest extent of the law. However, in terms of legal immigration I find the arguments of the closed-borders crowd to be tinged with racism and xenophobia that ignores the fact that this country was build in the hard work of immigrants.
Monkey, I’m very familiar with the story….the son of an immigrant who becomes successful (even though just last week you were crying poverty because of your high cost-of-living and expensive commute in New York) who then uses his upward mobility as a club to wallop his former neighbors over the head. Like the rest of these stories, yours is told as if it’s a twelve-step plan “guaranteed to lift you out of poverty or your money back.” The real world isn’t so black-and-white since everybody has a different upbringing, a different level of intelligence, and different life circumstances that lead them one direction or another. Your how-to book on becoming a success also serves as a means of trivializing the economic contributions of people who don’t achieve the financial success that you have, thus legitimizing (at least in your mind) the concept that poor people deserve their fate. It’s hard for me to understand how people who had a difficult upbringing can disown their former neighbors once they get that first taste of the American dream, but that in itself is an example of just how different people are, which in itself refutes your cookie-cutter perception of the division of labor.
It also strikes me as interesting how, in response to my hypothetical situation where everyone has Ph.D’s and the demand still exists for low and medium-skill labor as a natural component of a functional economy, your first reaction is to insist that a pool of cheap immigrant labor replace them. God forbid that the market forces you so often revere are actually allowed to occur in the labor market and lift wage levels in these industries. That would throw off balance the GOP corporate constituency’s perceived entitlement to cheap labor on demand.
Jay, I guess you either didn’t read or chose to manipulate my comments on immigration policy. I said that I have no problem with a moderate infusion of immigrants, but felt the immigration quotas of the 1990’s of a million newcomers per year was excessive. As I’ve stated before, I don’t believe the way to improved conditions in the developing world is to export my neighbor’s job to the third world worker or to import the third world worker to my neighbor’s job.
Coming from a working-class family in a working-class community, I bring years of personal experience to the table when commenting on the negative connotations that comes from an overly permissive immigration policy. My dad lost two of the “jobs Americans don’t want to do” when his employer chose to seek immigrant labor willing to work for 50 cents on the dollar.
Virtually any job can become “jobs Americans don’t want to do” if working conditions are made difficult enough and the rate of compensation plunges low enough. Immigration allows employers the tool they need to turn their industry into “jobs Americans don’t want to do”. My dad was lucky enough to get a job with the railroad nine years ago. Here’s an industry that was propped up a century ago by impoverished and poorly treated immigrant labor, just as meatpacking was during the Upton Sinclair era. A campaign of deregulation and union-busting allowed the meatpacking industry to regress working conditions back to the Gilded Age, and the railroad is one of many industries where the exact thing can (or rather will) happen to in the modern era of endless corporate empowerment through deregulation along with a permissive immigration policy.
I come from a community where more than 30 percent of the population was born outside of the United States. While the immigrants have been an asset to the community in numerous ways, their presence has placed a tremendous strain on the community’s social services (especially now that they’re being gutted by the Pawlenty regime), instability to the public schools whose performance scores are suppressed by the liquid student body and who must cut athletic and after-school programs to finance new ESL programs, and a revolving door of labor at the town’s workplaces that give absolutely no reason for graduating students to stick around unless they’re willing to work in brutal conditions at wage levels below the poverty line. Overall, immigration appears to be the final straw that will break the camel’s back in fragile rural economies since the kinds of jobs that would command higher wage levels if local market forces were allowed to run their course will always defer to immigrants offering the lowest bid for their labor.
Immigration definitely stands a long-term risk for the Republican party, but most now seem willing to overlook it for the short-term gains they can make for their corporate constituency and a variety of other items on the conservative wish list. While you guys will invite them to come to take advantage of their cheap labor, you will then use their poverty against them and put them on display as “scum-sucking welfare parasites who don’t earn enough to pay taxes and thus feed out of the trough that I fill for them.” At this point you have exactly what you want. A disempowered, non-union labor force being oppressed by a lawless corporate culture, and an angry electorate so furious about “the takeover of indolent immigrants” that they support efforts to slash social spending that may help lift them above the third-world squallor they live in, but that conservatives don’t want to see them rise above. Furthermore, immigration puts a relentless strain on the public schools, which suppresses their test scores and district performances to the point that conservatives can rail about the dreadful public schools, the teachers union thugs destroying them, and the need to turn our education system over to the wonderful people who brought us Enron and WorldCom.
Ultimately, immigration is gonna make the Republican party as irrelevant nationwide as it is now in California because of their high rate of immigration. The GOP is desperately trying to correct that problem, however, by crafting an “amnesty” plan that will allow immigrants entry into the country to provide labor services for our corporations, but deny them full-time citizenship after they arrive. Taxation without representation??? Seems like the further the timeline says we are from the emancipation
of slaves, the closer we’re moving back to the mindset that laborers are not human, but mere property.
(even though just last week you were crying poverty
Hah! Lie. I was putting things into perspective for you that cost of living in New York is higher then in a rural area.
Go ahead. Pull out that quote where I am crying poverty. Lying is a typical liberal tactic. Come on, Mark, either pull out that quote and prove that what you say is a fact or admit that you are a liar (which you will do by ignoring this part of the post).
uses his upward mobility as a club to wallop his former neighbors over the head.
Wallop who? All I am saying is – if my family can do it – so can anyone else’s.
different upbringing, a different level of intelligence, and different life circumstances that lead them one direction or another.
Right. That’s where personal responsibility comes in.
the concept that poor people deserve their fate.
We all deserve out fate. Rich or poor. My family was poor. The transformation was not magical – it happened through hard work. Hence, we deserved our fate, because we made our own destiny.
It’s hard for me to understand how people who had a difficult upbringing can disown their former neighbors
Huh? My family wasn’t handed anything. We worked hard and we made it via hard work. Your ilk hates success – because success proves that hard work pays off. You’ld rather whine and bitch about your misfortunes instead of getting off your ass and doing something with your life. You can pull excuses out of your ass all day long, but in the end you’ll remain where you are – because excuses and self pity won’t help you any. Perhaps one day you’ll realize that.
hello all,
I’m not gonna get a 100 quotes out of this debate -because it would be too long- but there really was good ones.
especially the part about france…can you imagine that my friends and I made it through? besides stikes (all year long?) in buses and schools, gangs of killers in the street, call for islamisation, taxes (it sounds like 98% taxes as you put it)…Now Jay, you cannot pretend anymore you’ve been to france, or it means you forgot to take off your GOP blinders.
the other part about immigration was very funny too. I’m not gonna develop here sorry -I’m at work- but I’d love to.
ok, just a quote:
(in France)”if you work more than 35 hours per week you get fined or even jailed”
oh really…I’m in trouble, and so are my parents, and our friends, our co-workers…
do you have an example (a fine would be enough of an example for now)
Vincent,
do you have an example (a fine would be enough of an example for now)
While you are on a fact finding mission, I would appreciate for you to support your allegations in this thread. Thanks.
don’t worry, I’m rather sure the topic will come back everyday in the next years, decades…
I will anyway.
thank you for your dedication in debate though!(no irony here)
Vincent,
I am not being ironic, either. Either support your statements with facts or admit that you just picked up propaganda without giving 2 seconds of thought to its validity.
Immigration doesn’t really bother me.
What bothers me is the continual export of American jobs overseas driven by (of course) corporate profit motive. That, more than anything else, is the single greatest factor preventing our economic recovery.
I admit that I just picked up propaganda without giving 2 seconds of thought to its validity.
happy?
(maybe some irony here)
I admit that I just picked up propaganda without giving 2 seconds of thought to its validity.
Your admittance was noted when you failed to respond to facts that disputed your statements. Hence, your last post is redundant.
Thanks for the post.