Thomas Friedman argues that France has become an enemy of America by their actions towards Iraq.
What I have no doubts about, though, is that there is no coherent, legitimate Iraqi authority able to assume power in the near term, and trying to force one now would lead to a dangerous internal struggle and delay the building of the democratic institutions Iraq so badly needs. Iraqis know this. France knows this, which is why its original proposal (which it now seems to be backtracking on a bit) could only be malicious.
What is so amazing to me about the French campaign – "Operation America Must Fail" – is that France seems to have given no thought as to how this would affect France. Let me spell it out in simple English: if America is defeated in Iraq by a coalition of Saddamists and Islamists, radical Muslim groups – from Baghdad to the Muslim slums of Paris – will all be energized, and the forces of modernism and tolerance within these Muslim communities will be on the run. To think that France, with its large Muslim minority, where radicals are already gaining strength, would not see its own social fabric affected by this is fanciful.
If France were serious, it would be using its influence within the European Union to assemble an army of 25,000 Eurotroops, and a $5 billion reconstruction package, and then saying to the Bush team: Here, we’re sincere about helping to rebuild Iraq, but now we want a real seat at the management table. Instead, the French have put out an ill-conceived proposal, just to show that they can be different, without any promise that even if America said yes Paris would make a meaningful contribution.
But then France has never been interested in promoting democracy in the modern Arab world, which is why its pose as the new protector of Iraqi representative government – after being so content with Saddam’s one-man rule – is so patently cynical.
As extreme as Friedman’s position is, it is also a sentiment that is firmly entrenched in this country. The French are reviled in America for their position on Iraq. It is one thing to choose to stay out of the war – that is understandable. But to be willing to sabotage the chances of democracy in Iraq is simply unacceptable behavior for a member of the world community.
Glenn Reynolds has some more interesting commentary on this controversial piece. I believe that Sylvain Galineau has it right:
France wants to get back to business as usual. For TotalFinaElf, Alcatel and the scores of French companies who coined money working for the Hussein regime for decades. As long as Paul Bremer is in charge, it won’t happen. France needs someone it can bribe and sign dodgy deals with. The UN can deliver that. The US won’t.
Even people in France are realizing that De Villepin’s arrogance is beyond the pale. Every nation has a vested interest in putting a democratic and peaceful regime in Iraq. Yet France is placing its short-term self interest ahead of the greater interests of peace.
Assuming that France were willing to help out, it is unlikely that France could provide the 250,000 "EuroTroops" that Friedman talks about. Neither Germany nor France could provide more than 5,000 troops each, compared to the 9,000 Polish troops already in Iraq. Given the political compromises needed to get such a small force in Iraq, it would simply not be worth it to bother.
It is becoming increasingly clear that the French government is more than just reflexively anti-American – it is willing to actively sabotage the effort to rebuild Iraq. Given such a situation it’s hard to call France and ally and increasingly easy to call them an enemy. Unfortunately for the French people, the greed of their government and political elites are leading them straight into international irrelevance.
If France really is “the enemy”, I suggest that Republicans waste no time going public with the need for “preventative strike” against them.
Guys like you are making it even harder for France or Germany to finally provide any help. Your comment is not only totally stupid, it is also wrong and unfounded. For example you say that France could not provide any more than 5.000 soldiers, according to a quote from an article; this article says:
“As it happens, neither France nor Germany are in a position to provide much in the way of men or money. Both countries would struggle to come up with more than 5,000 troops each, compared with some 140,000 American soldiers currently on the ground, backed up by 10,000 from Britain and a 9,000-strong Polish-led force which was deployed this week in central Iraq.”
where is the evidence on which such assertion can be based on? How ignorant are you of geopolitics to believe that Poland can easily provide twice as many soldiers as Germany or france could? This would be like saying that the economy in Chile is twice as strong as it is in the US!!!
France is the world’s third biggest producer of weapons (after the US and the UK)!!
How dare you say that France is not supporting this war because our greedy companies cannot bribe Bremer?!? look at your president and his corporate friends, the first of them (to quote only him) being Dick Cheney, whose former company, Halliburton, has been given total responsability for rebuilding Irak(!) (eventhough this company alone cannot fullfil this task, and will have to give subcontracts to international companies after retaining some money in the process!).
Of course France cannot agree with such an antidemocratic decision that was taken without the vote of the UN!! If not, why did you try to come up with a new resolution, before realizing you didn’t even get the “moral majority” in the Security Council, and finally say that the older resolution was sufficient to make this war! (and that it was because of the threat of a french veto!)
And now that you made such a “coup d’etat” in the UN, who will beleve that you want and can set up a democracy in one country? You’re not even able to set up fair and well-organised elections in the US: from the controversial election of bush, to the one in the state of California!!
The only real ally you have in this war is the UK (that is for historical reasons the “pet” of the US), and Poland (which is just trying to get financial help to get out of the third-world). That makes 2! There are almost 200 countries in the world. Despite what you say, no other country -like India – is willing to send troops today. France is the only country you’re focusing on because we have this veto power, and an international recognition of being THE country whose image is associated with the raise of democracy in the modern world (just as much as the US, and maybe more, because our declaration of human rights was UNIVERSAL, and not only for OUR people like Americans did). For these reasons, we are the only one who can stand up and tell you what everybody is secetly thinking.
Once again, I love the US, but only as far as it remains a democratic nation. Since 9/11, the answers proposed by Bush and his team have been bad (to be short).
I’m sorry for the length of this post, but some things need to be say. I hope you (everyone) liked it.
oh yeah, I almost forgot:
“But then France has never been interested in promoting democracy ”
Who helped this young – at the time- country called America to get freedom and democracy?
;-))
Because those are the facts. What forces the French have are either tied up in African peacekeeping or otherwise unavailable. Even a former NATO Secretary General Robertson said that Europe is a "military pygmy" – and he is British. The Economist article I linked to goes into more detail (you may need an account to access it, if so it’s also in the print edition for this month).
You’re leaving out Spain, Italy, the Czech Republic, Australia, the Ukraine, Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, Latvia, Slovakia, and Lithuania, all of whom have troops in Iraq right now. All in all, 58 nations are providing either direct military or logistical support to the coalition in Iraq.
The US: Republic since 1776.
France: Since 1776 has been a monarchy, a violent anarchy, an empire twice, and has no less than five different attempts at Republican (in the classical sense) government. Somehow I have a feeling that a nation whose government is younger than some of our politicians is being more than just a little arrogant to dictate what democracy should be given their own history.
You’re correct that there are several French philosophers who were responsible for developing democratic theory. However, I don’t believe neither Montesquieu nor de Tocqueville would have much praise for the current state of French democracy.
I personally don’t like the fact that Franco-American relations have gotten this bad. I actually like France. However, I cannot morally support the actions of the French government, and I fail to see how anyone can justify an action that places the political interests of a few politicians like Chirac and de Villepin above those of the Iraqi people and world peace. Even you stated that you didn’t agree with that position, and you’re absolutely right that the demands that France is making cannot be honored without doing irreparable harm to the Iraqi people.
You two need to calm down! This kind of talk only increases anger between the US and France. You both have good points but you are forgetting some very important facts in our history:
1st
Jay, you really need to stop listening to Fox News because it is obvious that it is really getting to you. You are forgetting that France went broke in the revolutionary war helping us be free. The US has been very ungrateful for all the help France has given us, Example they send us a huge gift (the statue of Liberty) and what do we give them in return? A really small hand and torch sculpture. Also during 9/11 France and other countries offered us sympathy for our lost ones, and what do we do when they disagree with us? (They never even said no to war, they just wanted to give the weapon inspectors more time) Our government re-names French fries and French toast “Freedom fries” and “freedom Toast” Give me a break. First how immature can you be. Second, I am so glad my tax money was spent on the long decision to put this into motion. Third, Where do you get your facts anyway? Some of you so-called facts are greatly misrepresented. You should read Al Franken’s book “Lies, and the Lying liars who tell them, a fair and balanced look at the far right” This book talks about the American Media and how they skew the facts. Check out chapter 2, Ann Coulter: Nutcase. He talks about how she misrepresents facts… it will make you want to check your sources. I think both of you need to just stop with this talk, all you are doing is keeping the tension between France and America alive. Neither one of us is better or worse then the other.
You two need to calm down! This kind of talk only increases anger between the US and France. You both have good points but you are forgetting some very important facts in our history:
1st
Jay, you really need to stop listening to Fox News because it is obvious that it is really getting to you. You are forgetting that France went broke in the revolutionary war helping us be free. The US has been very ungrateful for all the help France has given us, Example they send us a huge gift (the statue of Liberty) and what do we give them in return? A really small hand and torch sculpture. Also during 9/11 France and other countries offered us sympathy for our lost ones, and what do we do when they disagree with us? (They never even said no to war, they just wanted to give the weapon inspectors more time) Our government re-names French fries and French toast “Freedom fries” and “freedom Toast” Give me a break. First how immature can you be. Second, I am so glad my tax money was spent on the long decision to put this into motion. Third, Where do you get your facts anyway? Some of you so-called facts are greatly misrepresented. You should read Al Franken’s book “Lies, and the Lying liars who tell them, a fair and balanced look at the far right” This book talks about the American Media and how they skew the facts. Check out chapter 2, Ann Coulter: Nutcase. He talks about how she misrepresents facts… it will make you want to check your sources. I think both of you need to just stop with this talk, all you are doing is keeping the tension between France and America alive. Neither one of us is better or worse then the other.
I forgot to ad that De Villepin was the one voice of reason during this time. I think is he one of the most democratic politicians out there and France is lucky to have him.
End of rant.
…along with the lives of thousands of American soldiers in World War I and World War II.
You have got to be kidding.
Where do I get my sources? How about reading them? Thomas Friedman is one of the world’s premiere scholars of international relations and international issues, and hardly a cheerleader for the Bush Administration. (Not to mention that the New York Times is hardly right-wing as well.) The Economist is a European publication that is known worldwide for fair and evenhanded analysis of international issues.
Al Franken is a washed up comedian with no degree, no credentials, and a rabid sense of partisanship. Hell, I have more credentials in international relations than Franken does.
Getting your perspective on the world from Al Franken is, quite frankly, as dumb as getting it from Bill O’Reilly or any of the two-bit ideologues in the popular media.
First of all, I’m glad to see that most of the points I made in my first post have not been discredited. As we say in France: “Qui ne dit mot consent” (If you’re not saying anything, it means you agree)
Second, to Isabel :
1-thanks for acting as a referee, but Jay and I have been partying together for a year, and this debate, as hot as it can get cannot get into a real fight. We both have arguments, and are exposing it in the most convincing way we find appropriate. No need to “calm down” or anything like that. Despite all the “!!!”, I’m writing very quietly on my bed, and it doesn’t prevent me from sleeping at night.
2-you adressed Jay and pointed out his mistakes. Where is “my” part? Nothing wrong? kewl!
and now back to the facts:
-democracy was set up in the US before than in France. I never pretended the opposite. My comment on the universality of human rights in france in comparison to the declaration in the US still stand.
-If you ever travel in France, you’d be surprise to discover in EVERY city a monument dedicated to WWII deaths, congratulating americans for their help. nobody proposed in senate to send them overseas.
-On one hand, you say that France oppose world peace, and on the other hand, you say that we could not provide troops in Irak because our guys are busy in peacekeeping missions over the world: make up your mind, or admit you were wrong by stating we couldn’t give more troops than Poland.
-For your personnal knowledge, the French terrestrial army is strong, with 190 000 ACTIVE soldiers (which means you can add the reservists+navy+air force); half of them are still “deployed” in France right now.
-I stated that I didn’t agree on the fact that France wants sovereignity back to iraqis NOW. I stand on this position. This doesn’t mean I agree on the fact that American took over Irak, nor that we now should send some troops in.
-going back to the coalition of the willing. In addition to the 2 (!) I agreed on, you named:”Spain, Italy, the Czech Republic, Australia, the Ukraine, Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, Latvia, Slovakia, and Lithuania”. How does that make 58? (unless you’re talking about the total population of Czech/Slovakia/Bulgaria/ Hungary/Romania/Latvia and Lithuania combined alltogether ;-). The real reason is that these 58 countries you’re talking about are maybe “willing”, but not so proud about it. Maybe because some of these countries are not so democratic themselves (like Saudis, Pakistaneses…) and that if it came public, their dictatorial regime would be overthrown by an angry mob. Who’s against world peace and democracy again? You must admit it also is very convenient to have this kind of secret…did I ever told you about my girlfriend the famous model from elite? sorry, I can’t say who it is!
-You say you cannot agree with the actions of the french government. Ok. What have they done that was so wrong? They did not opposed the war per se (they even went to war against Saddam and Irak when he was so obviously wrong in ’91) they just asked for more time for UN inspectors to discover WMDs. If you think this is wrong then…we’re waiting for your inspectors to find something now!
-you like France.I’m delighted. If you come back as a tourist, you won’t get harrassed in the street, or looked at in a funny way like some friends of mine experienced in Texas and NYC. We didn’t even rename the “pain americain” (french toast in english 😉
OR MAYBE YOU REALLY WERE SERIOUS and I should say “freedom toast”. Politics for breakfast.
I think the French are fools. I think they stabbed their friend and ally the US in the back and I think the US should retaliate against France in every way possible, up to and including deporting french nationals in this country, freezing french bank accounts, forbidding companies and their subsidiaries from doing business in France, closing the US embassy and the French embassy in the US and by vetoing anything and everything the French propose in the UN for the next decade.
I wouldn’t go that far. My advice is to treat de Villepin and Chirac in the same way that you’d treat any petulant child – by simply ignoring them. They want to make a scene and get attention and feel important. Simply ignoring them deprives them of that attention and ensures that they don’t get what they want.
you guys are starting to be way too democratic for me.
I imagine that the post of bishop was ironic. If not, there really is something wrong happening in the US.
Jay, the last sentence you wrote is stupid. It sounds like what you reproached to France few days ago (“Operation America Must Fail”). This “operation” doesn’t exist anywhere else than in your dreams. Acting like that is stupid. Even Georges II didn’t came up with such an idea…
Yes, because Dominique de Villepin is really dumb enough to think that the Iraqis can be free and democratic in a matter of months.
Either the French proposal is an act of sheer stupidity or it’s designed to prevent the US from getting UN approval for peacekeeping in Iraq. Personally, I’m more inclined to believe the latter.
France Our Enemy Thursday, Sep 18, 2003
05:31 PM | Comments (1)
Finally some agreement – and boldly – to what I’ve been preaching for a while regarding France. They are our fiercest competition, and thus becoming our enemy.
It’s time we Americans came to terms with something: France is not just our annoying ally. It is not just our jealous rival. France is becoming our enemy.
If you add up how France behaved in the run-up to the Iraq war (making it impossible for the Security Council to put a real ultimatum to Saddam Hussein that might have avoided a war), and if you look at how France behaved during the war (when its foreign minister, Dominique de Villepin, refused to answer the question of whether he wanted Saddam or America to win in Iraq), and if you watch how France is behaving today (demanding some kind of loopy symbolic transfer of Iraqi sovereignty to some kind of hastily thrown together Iraqi provisional government, with the rest of Iraq’s transition to democracy to be overseen more by a divided U.N. than by America), then there is only one conclusion one can draw: France wants America to fail in Iraq.
France wants America to sink in a quagmire there in the crazy hope that a weakened U.S. will pave the way for France to assume its “rightful” place as America’s equal, if not superior, in shaping world affairs.
If France were serious, it would be using its influence within the European Union to assemble an army of 25,000 Eurotroops, and a $5 billion reconstruction package, and then saying to the Bush team: Here, we’re sincere about helping to rebuild Iraq, but now we want a real seat at the management table. Instead, the French have put out an ill-conceived proposal, just to show that they can be different, without any promise that even if America said yes Paris would make a meaningful contribution.
(Thomas Friedman-NYT)
PS – Thanks for being very supportive of our country for once, Friedman.
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Comments on “France Our Enemy”
dear American friends,
please listen to me: stop believing what the newspapers say about france being an American enemy! This is not true !
As a French I can tell you what every body believes in here: we are your friends, we love American culture, we ll allways be grateful about european liberation in 1944, we have no pretention of becoming equal to the US! You cannot imagine how sad we are when reading such comments on many websites including on NYT and herald tribune! You have to know this: this is not what French people think neither our Government think .
What we want is peace, freedom and a more balanced world.
Just consider this: have you ever seen a friend saying yes to something he really believes in deep being bad for him, himself and the entire world?
If you re not convinced please do me a favour and keep on reading arabian news papers, european, russian and asian ones!they are all available in english on the web! believe me, you ll be really surprised to see how quickly the world is changing and how american power is being seen as threat in the minds of millions of people! This is serious this is true. You have to stand up and say the world this is not true. I am 24 and I ve been to England, Germany, Holland, Belgium, Poland, Belarus, Russia, Tchequie, Syria, India, Thailand, Vietnam, China and Nepal. I met tens of Americans. I allways made friends of them. We allways shared the same vison of the world. I know we re close and deeply linked. I also know the changes happening in our world. What i would like is you try to open your eyes and see them your own way and not through the eyes of a president who had only been once outside the Us before being elected.
democracy might be the best regime , its application comes from culural, social and religious changes that took decades to make it possible for us to implement it.
You ll need help to get out Irak mess. We ll be here as friends and a nation. We ll allways need you cause we need your will and power to leed the free world. What we would only like is our advice to be more taken into account cause europe does know middle east.
1. The UN building should be removed from US soil and the US should withdraw participation.
2. The US should ban all outflow of US assets to foreign countries and impose a 100% tax on all imported goods.
3. All US govt personnel, including the military, should be brought back home immediately.
4. All countries should be given warning – mess with us and you get an ICBM up your ass.
the guy who said that the france helped us out when we were fighting for independence is an idiot. world history tells us that france was in a protracted war with england and only helped us out to set up another front when the american revolution was on the downhill turn for the british. … also did the french people vote to help us out or was it a dictator?… numbnut!
How can anyone be called a friend if they stab you in the back, put their full desire into seeing you fail and even try to get others to defeat you? Is this a friend? I ask you people of France, is it? You dont yet realize it yet, but you REALLY messed up by opposing us in this way. You will be rewarded for your treachery, I guarantee! You haven’t stoped the US from kicking that dictator out of Iraq and you won’t stop us the next time either. The worse thing for you, is that your “true colors” have been shown to us. You cannot “pretend” to be our friend after this. You CAN NOT spit in a tigers eye and not expect to get bitten!