A suicide bomber has killed at least 14, many of them children in an attack on a Jerusalem bus.
"We do have dead and there are definitely wounded," Israeli police spokesman Gil Kleiman said. "Among the dead are children," he said.
Israeli news reports said at least seven people were dead, and ambulance services said more than 70 people had been wounded.
Of course, this will all be blamed on Israel and the "occupation" and the usual litany of "root causes" – as though the innocent children on that bus had anything to do with Israeli policy. When people start making excuses for such inhuman acts one shouldn’t be surprised that such acts continue.
UPDATE: Islamic Jihad has claimed responsibility. Hopefully this means that members of Islamic Jihad will soon find themselves blown straight to hell.
UPDATE: The death toll now stands at 20, many of them children.
Jay, note how fast the UN Security Council labeled the bombing of UN hq in Iraq a “terrorist act”, yet this terrorist bombing wouldn’t be labeled for what it is.
And yet, what is most important is that Israel show restraint, and that whatever they do in response, they must first consider whether their actions are helpful to the peace process. Of course, above all, what Israel must NOT do is build a fence to keep these bombers out.
I’m still waiting to hear your solution to this problem Jay.
Alex, Israel needs to wage war on these terrorist groups. Since Palestinians refuse to solve this matter, they implicitly accept the colateral damage that Israel’s action will bring.
…which only makes more willing to die to kill more Israelis. So you have no solution, as I thought.
Alex, uh, no.
Look at the events of Black September. Husseins *really* went after the Palestinians. Were there any suicide bombings/intifadah like tactics against Jordan? The only time terrorism is a force to recon with is when you try to negotiate with terrorists.
So are you saying Israel should have its own Black September?
Doh! Hit reply to soon…
Continued…
I supposed if they were to degenerate to the the level of barbarism that was that fateful month in 1970 I suppose they could end this problem for once and for all, by either expelling or exterminating anyone of Palestinian descent in Palestine. I would like to think we can be more civilised than that despite the barbarism we face so obviously niether would be an optimal solution.
Now of course Israel is doing nothing that extreme, but the ‘collateral damage’ that the Palestinian people are supposedly ‘implicitly accepting’ is more than twice that the number of dead Israeli civilians. (At least for this intifada) Lobbing missiles into crowded apartment buildings is just as despicable as blowing oneself up on a bus, perhaps more so as I would imagine you could kill a lot more innocents with the missile. Of course it is all fine and dandy as supposedly they got one terrorist with the fifty plus that are dead. Now that was an extreme case I’ll admit, but this doesn’t seem like a very good way to be winning hearts and minds, which is what this is all fundamentally about.
Obviously they cannot do nothing, nor can thier usually heavy handed reprisals continue as such. This is going nowhere. If you thought I might have an idea you’re greatly mistaken. I haven’t a damn clue. Move them all to Antarctica is the best I can come up with. The point of my post was to criticize Jay for failing to understand yet again that his ‘this is despicable, fuck the reasons why people are blowing themselves up to kill us – we must retaliate tenfold’ attitude is exactly why Israel finds itself on the receiving end of a state that is self destructing if only to kill a few more of them. Indeed this is despicable, but one cannot cure a disease without acknowledging its origins.
So are you saying Israel should have its own Black September?
No. What I am saying is that Israel should not negotiate till the terrorists are wiped out. Is that unresonable? If Palestinians refuse to wipe them out, then they accept them and their actions. Since that’s the case, Israel needs to go in and get them.
I suppose they could end this problem for once and for all, by either expelling or exterminating anyone of Palestinian descent in Palestine.
I didn’t say that. But what you are saying is still silly. King Hussein did not exterminate/expel all Palestinians. It was not even 1%.
but the ‘collateral damage’ that the Palestinian people are supposedly ‘implicitly accepting’ is more than twice that the number of dead Israeli civilians
Link please. Given that suicide bombers are added to the Palestinian casualty count…
Here are some stats (Up to aug, 2002. But I suspect it’s been consistent since then)
603 Israelis dead, 1596 Palestinians dead.
Out of 1596 Pal dead – 70 are females. (4.3%)
Out of 603 Israelis dead – 190 are females. (31.5%)
Out of 1596 Pal dead – 55 are 45 or older. (3.4%)
Out of 603 Israelis dead – 148 are 45 or older. (40.7%)
So, females are 4.3% palestinian to 31.5% Israeli. Don’t forget that the palestinian % includes those women who blew themselvesup.
Folks over 45, Palestinian 3.4% to 40.7% Israeli.
You were saying something about about civilian casualties being higher on the Pallie side?
Here’s an interesting statistic – 12% of the Pal casualties are “suicide bombers, “work accidents”, collaborators, and people killed in intra-Palestinian fighting”. Yep. Those get included, too.
Here’s the source
Obviously they cannot do nothing, nor can thier usually heavy handed reprisals continue as such.
Uh. No. There are no “heavy handed reprisals”. If there were – there would be no intifadah. Look. Jewish kids did not throw stones at Nazi soldiers in the Warsaw ghetto, just as Iraqi kids didn’t throw stones at the Baath police. There is a reason for that and that should tell you something right there about the alleged “heavy handed reprisals” by IDF.
but one cannot cure a disease without acknowledging its origins.
The origin of the disease is negotiating under terror.
What I am saying is that Israel should not negotiate till the terrorists are wiped out. Is that unresonable?
For every one you kill in this current state of affairs two more will replace him. Good luck.
I didn’t say that. But what you are saying is still silly. King Hussein did not exterminate/expel all Palestinians. It was not even 1%.
No it is not silly. It would definetly work. For a while, that is.
Link please. Given that suicide bombers are added to the Palestinian casualty count…
Innocents are innocents. Subtract the suicide bombers from that and I think you’ll still have a two to one in favor of Israel. Lets see, you said 12% are “”suicide bombers, “work accidents”, collaborators, and people killed in intra-Palestinian fighting”.” so that means 1596 * .88 = 1404.48 / 2 = 702.24 > 603. Sure looks like its greater than two to one to me. (For the record those were the same statistics I was thinking of – thanks for finding them!)
Uh. No. There are no “heavy handed reprisals”.
I gave you a good example with the missile lobbed into a crowded apartment building. That happened about the same I first saw those statistics. I’m sure if you’re really motivated you can find the complete story. At least, unlike many other attacks, they actually got the guy.
Look. Jewish kids did not throw stones at Nazi soldiers in the Warsaw ghetto
I guess if we’re going to use Hitler as the standard not much could be considered heavy handed.
The origin of the disease is negotiating under terror.
You’re not looking very far back then.
Clarifacations and additions:
(Damnit Jay what kind backwards forum doesn’t have an edit post option?! Alright, most of blogspace, at least that I’ve seen, but that is no excuse! I expect better of you! 🙂
Innocents are innocents.
That was to be a separate paragraph in itself. More specifically about:
So, females are 4.3% palestinian to 31.5% Israeli. Don’t forget that the palestinian % includes those women who blew themselvesup.
Folks over 45, Palestinian 3.4% to 40.7% Israeli.
Maybe I just have suspect moral values, but I believe any innocent dead is just as tragic as any other innocent dead.
Don’t forget that the palestinian % includes those women who blew themselvesup.
Alright, subtract two or three or whatever that total is up to now…
Folks over 45, Palestinian 3.4% to 40.7% Israeli.
That’s interesting to note. I’m curious though as to whether or not the average life expectancy in the Conquered Lands confounds that statistic, not including “”suicide bombers, “work accidents”, collaborators, and people killed in intra-Palestinian fighting””.
For every one you kill in this current state of affairs two more will replace him.
But we are not killing them. We are putting them in jail so we can release them at a later date.
It would definetly work. For a while, that is.
Quite a while. I already used Jordan as an example.
= 1404.48 / 2 = 702.24 > 603. Sure looks like its greater than two to one to me. (For the record those were the same statistics I was thinking of – thanks for finding them!)
Huh? Fuzzy math. 12% is The number of Palestinians killed by actions of their own side – including suicide bombers, “work accidents”, collaborators, and people killed in intra-Palestinian fighting – has increased strongly over time.. Not Pallies killed by IDF in shoot outs. I see you are not even attempting to rationalize the huge different in % of (and even in absolute numbers) between dead females and adults over 45.
I gave you a good example with the missile lobbed into a crowded apartment building. That happened about the same I first saw those statistics. I’m sure if you’re really motivated you can find the complete story.
Link please. I provided the source for the statistics I used. Be mature enough to provide the source for whatever you use to back yourself up.
I guess if we’re going to use Hitler as the standard not much could be considered heavy handed.
According to Arabs – Israel is worse then Hitler. In any case, you are not going to find many who’d dare to throw stones at NYPD.
You’re not looking very far back then.
Elaborate.
Maybe I just have suspect moral values, but I believe any innocent dead is just as tragic as any other innocent dead.
Strawman. Statistics were used to display whom Palestinians target. The huge difference in % speaks for itself.
Nice strawman, though.
That’s interesting to note. I’m curious though as to whether or not the average life expectancy in the Conquered Lands confounds that statistic
Good point.
Life expectancy
in Israel: 78.86 years
in West Bank: 72.47 years
That’s an ~8% difference.
That difference is meaningless in an almost 1:12 ratio of Pal (over 45) dead to Israeli.
As always: source.
I see you are not even attempting to rationalize the huge different in % of (and even in absolute numbers) between dead females and adults over 45.
No need to. Those figures suggest totally indiscriminate targetting, which we can all agree your average suicide bomber practices.
Here’s an interesting statistic – 12% of the Pal casualties are “suicide bombers, “work accidents”, collaborators, and people killed in intra-Palestinian fighting”. Yep. Those get included, too.
Right. The way that was stated would imply “Yep. Those get included too.” would be referring to the sum of 1596 dead circa Aug. 2002. If it was not, then what sum is this 12% of? If it was of that 1596 then my math is correct.
Out of 603 Israelis dead – 190 are females. (31.5%)
If that is supposed to imply thier intentionally targetting women over any one else then they’re doing a pretty shitty job!
I do not know about your elderly statistic as I do not know what percentage of Israel’s population is over 45. Again all signs are pointing to indiscriminate bombing, which I’m not sure why we’re arguing over this, as either way the net result is pretty fucking bad.
Nice strawman, though.
I thought so myself, but since you insist that I break it down see above.
According to Arabs – Israel is worse then Hitler.
Yeah well they’re just stupid.
In any case, you are not going to find many who’d dare to throw stones at NYPD.
But those who do probably won’t be shot for it.
Elaborate.
Here ya go. I should warn you that is an incredibly lengthy argument between me and a certain simian troll that used to infest this site. Although I make my point in there somewhere, my post was also retaliation for his endless tit for tat everything dispution and argument innundation tactics that made any thread he was posting in unbearable to read and any argument with him like fighting a brick wall. Indeed his tactic does work as I discovered, as I’ve not seen him here since. 🙂
To sum it up in one sentance however: People do not like being conquered; it generally pisses them off.
I would figure that most people would understand that.
Link please.
All riiiight. I suppose if you insist. Here ya go. An awful high price to pay for a man so easily replacable.
That’ll get you started. If you’re really motivated you can find a lot more.
Those figures suggest totally indiscriminate targetting, which we can all agree your average suicide bomber practices.
Weren’t you drawing moral equivalence between Israelis and Palestinians just a second ago?
If it was of that 1596 then my math is correct.
Yea, your numbers (1596 * .88 = 1404.48 / 2 = 702.24 > 603) are correct. However your comparison Sure looks like its greater than two to one to me. (For the record those were the same statistics I was thinking of – thanks for finding them!) is not valid. You are comparing (mostly civilian) Israeli casualties to (mostly non-civilian)Palestinian casualties.
But those who do probably won’t be shot for it.
They might get caught in a crossfire if people from the crowd shoot/throw molotovs at the cops.
Here ya go. An awful high price to pay for a man so easily replacable.
The huge difference, ofcourse, is that this guy was the target – not the civilians. This guy is not small potatoes either. He was the head of Hamas’ military wing, mastermind of 100’s of terror acts. Are you suggesting that he should’ve been left alone?
We need to go back to my original point, which was the Palestinian refusal to deal with their terrorists. These organizations have public offices, everybody know who these people are.
If Osama was living in my building – I’ld either be trying to get authorities to have him removed or be moving.
I should warn you that is an incredibly lengthy argument between me and a certain simian troll that used to infest this site.
LOLOLOL. “Monkey” was my nick, but I suspect you already knew that. Good one. In any case, I don’t see anything in that thread that is not in this one. Drawing moral equivalence with terror, claiming that Black September didn’t go very well for Jordan (it did), etc.
My main point stands. Israel should not be negotiating under terror.
Weren’t you drawing moral equivalence between Israelis and Palestinians just a second ago?
No I was not.
You are comparing (mostly civilian) Israeli casualties to (mostly non-civilian)Palestinian casualties.
Indeed, the link you pointed out states “Correcting for such distortions, we can arrive at a figure of 617 Palestinian noncombatants killed by Israel to 471 Israeli noncombatants killed by Palestinians”. Again Israel is winning, if you wish to interperet that as such. By less than a two to one, I’ll give you that, instead we have a three to two.
They might get caught in a crossfire if people from the crowd shoot/throw molotovs at the cops.
We’re not talking about Molotovs.
Are you suggesting that he should’ve been left alone?
No. I’m suggesting that perhaps some surgical precision might have been better in this situation. Or just droping the bomb on him when he was somewhere else.
If Osama was living in my building – I’ld either be trying to get authorities to have him removed or be moving.
One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. That man would probably have been a hero to you if you were a Palestinian.
“Monkey” was my nick
Indeed I suspected as such.
Drawing moral equivalence with terror, claiming that Black September didn’t go very well for Jordan (it did), etc.
Sigh. You just aren’t understanding what I’m saying. Oh well. To each man his delusions.
My main point stands. Israel should not be negotiating under terror.
As does mine. Thier tactics are not working and more extreme measures along the same line will not either. You’re fooling yourself if you think they will.
No I was not.
Oh? From the thread you (graciously) provided a link to:
“Are you equating colateral casualties with intentionally targeting civilians?
Yes, I am. The end result is the same. ”
By less than a two to one, I’ll give you that, instead we have a three to two.
Ok. Now factor in the fact that Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Al Aqsa brigades operate inside a dense urban environment and use civilians as cover…
We’re not talking about Molotovs.
Rock throwing and molotovs usually go hand in hand.
I’m suggesting that perhaps some surgical precision might have been better in this situation.
Easy for a civilian to say.
Defense Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer issued a statement saying that “the information which we had was that there were no civilians near [Shehadeh].” source. Quite a contrast from Hamas/Islamic Jihad who are falling all over each other trying to take responsibility for yesterday’s suicide bombing of a bus in Jerusalem.
One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. That man would probably have been a hero to you if you were a Palestinian.
Fine, but irrelevant. You can’t have it both ways. If he’s your hero and he lives in your building – you still know what’s coming, don’t ya?
In any case, you have a guy killing civilians. You support him and refuse to prevent him from killing Israeli civilians. What choice does Israel have, but to take him out?
You just aren’t understanding what I’m saying. Oh well
Yet, another strawman. Your claim was that Black September did not go well for Jordan. That is *all* you said on that topic. How can you claim that I don’t understand something that you are saying when you are not saying it? Can you tell me how the events of Black September or its consequences did not go well for Jordan?
Thier tactics are not working
Their tactics are not working because their tactic is not to fight terror. Everytime something happens, Israel gives Palestinians a 2-3 hour warning to clear gov’t buildilngs. Then they send a dozen rockets to level an empty police station. It’s a dog and pony show and is nothing but a pathetic display. They are not doing anything. Their policy is made in Washington by the US State Dept – not in Israel. Given that that our State Dept deals with 50+ muslim nations and only 1 Jewish state… You get the drift.
You’re fooling yourself if you think they will.
History is still on my side. I mentioned Black September. I have yet to hear your case as to how King Hussein failed there.