A Palestinian terrorist snuck into a Jewish settlement in the West Bank and murdered a settler and an infant during the Jewish New Year today.
No state deserves to exist if its existance requires innocent children to be deliberately murdered in cold blood.
Jay,
This starts to be nauseating.
Killing innocents is obviously beyond comprehension, especially when babies or children are cowardly targeted.
But using such tragedies involving BOTH SIDES to vindicate Sharon’s atrocities is appalling.
And the Isreali’s have killed how many innocents? Don’t let your love for the state of Isreal get in the way of the truth.
Of course, many on the Right see the truth as an obstacle to be avoided.
Whenever a Jew is killed whose fault is it? The Jews! How dare they fight back when someone tries to kill them! How dare Sharon try to execute terrorists – only non-Jews get to do that.
The Israels don’t target children – hamas and hezbollah put them in the path of Israeli tanks so they can get shot for them.
This is our second shoah, and G-d help us, the world has turned against the Jews once again.
Palestinian/Israeli Casualties Under 18 Between Sept 27 2000 – Sept 17 2003:
Palestinian Children: 68
Israeli Children: 31
Funny that the death of an Israeli child is front page news to Jay given that it happens twice as often to Palestinians.
The Israels don’t target children – hamas and hezbollah put them in the path of Israeli tanks so they can get shot for them.
Don’t you think that’s a pretty stupid and ignorant thing to say, Claire? Palestinians love their children just as much as Israelis do. And besides, don’t you think it’s the responsibility of the Israelis in the tank to know what they’re shooting at?
Then again if you’re compelled to rationalize the actions of Israel no matter what, I guess that’s just the kind of logic you’ll come up with. Anyway maybe you’d like to tell me how “Jews protecting themselves” explains the use of children as human shields by the Israeli Occupying Force two weeks ago.
The International Solidarity Movement is a radical anti-Israeli organization that routinely lies about Israeli actions. They are not an objective source, and should not be treated as such.
The IDF does not target civilians. Hamas routinely and publically surrounds themselves with human shields, including children. Claire is right that Hamas deliberately puts children in harms way to put political pressure on the Israelis.
Israelis don’t strap explosives to their kids and send them to blow up other children.
Even if Israeli’s actions are extreme, and one can make that argument, in no way does that ever justify the actions of the Palestinians. Groups like Hamas and Hizb’Allah do not want a free Palestinian state – they want the utter eradication of Israel – a second Holocaust, as Claire stated.
The Palestinians are not some noble victims of the Israelis, they are using tactics which are completely unacceptable. You cannot build a peaceful state on the blood of Israelis (and the blood of the thousands of Palestinians who were executed as “collaborators”). If the Palestinians wanted peace, they could have had it at any time. They do not – and until they do Israel has every right to protect itself.
Even if Israeli’s actions are extreme, and one can make that argument, in no way does that ever justify the actions of the Palestinians.
Well, duh, Jay.
But the corollary is true – it’s an invalid argument to try to justify the extremes of the Israeli army by reference to supposed Palestinian cruelty, as Claire tried to do, and as I suspect you will do any time evidence of Israeli excess is presented.
True, but the extremes of the Israeli Army do not include the deliberate targeting of civilians, suicide bombings, or a desire to execute every single member of the other side.
Jay,
Why split hairs. Any form of violence directed at children is untolerable.
Final dot.
“If the Palestinians wanted peace, they could have had it at any time. They do not – and until they do Israel has every right to protect itself.”
the problem is that they don’t only want peace, but also jobs, electricity, fair treatment…they gave peace for a few years between the two intifadas, but nothing was given in return:
segregation continued
colonisation continued
The Palestinians had at least three chances for their own state, 1937, 1947, and 2000. (And that is hardly a complete list.) In all three cases, the Palestinians rejected a two-state solution. The Palestinian position has been that the only solution that they will accept is the destruction of all Israel.
As Thomas Friedman quite astutely stated: “Criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic, and saying so is vile. But singling out Israel for opprobrium and international sanction – out of all proportion to any party in the Middle East – is anti-Semitic, and not saying so is dishonest.”
Israel grants citizenship to Israeli Arabs, some of whom sit in the Knesset. Even a “moderate” regime like Jordan denies citizenship to Jews – but Israel is criticized.
Israel advocates a two-state solution for the Palestinians. The Palestinians advocate the destruction of Israel – but Israel is criticized.
Israel allows those who oppose Israeli actions to have a voice – including members of the Knesset. The Palestinians execute “collaborators” – but Israel is criticized.
Israel is a multiparty democracy with parties ranging from the socialist Labour Party to the American-style conservatism of Likud to the religious Shas Party to the secular and moderate Shinui Party. Palestine is ruled solely by Yassir Arafat and his Fatah Party and there is only a very weak opposition which has no political power – but Israel is criticized.
Israel granted citizenship to many of the Arabs who wanted to stay in Israel when it was created. The rest of the Arab world oppressed and terrorized 850,000 Sephardic Jews until they fled to Israel in 1948 – but Israel is criticized.
I could go on for pages and pages describing the double standards that apply to Israel. However, Alan Dershowitz’s brilliant The Case for Israel already does an excellent job of doing so. Criticism of Israel is based on a double standard that ignores the reality of the Middle East and singles out Israel for special condemnation – which is in itself a form of anti-Semitism. Certainly one needn’t agree with everything Ariel Sharon does, but to view Israel is the aggressor when it is their citizens being targeted for genocide is simply unfair.
Israel grants citizenship to Israeli Arabs
Didn’t it ever cross your mind that so-called Arab Israelis (not “Israeli Arabs”: what a lapsus Jay!) would rather be regular Palestinian citizens than second-rate Israeli citizens?
Israel advocates a two-state solution for the Palestinians
If such an Israeli “advocacy” is to be compared to the myriad of UN violated resolutions urging this colonial oppressor to implement two-state solution for the Palestinians, then every one may understand that what Israel claims isn’t what Israel does. Israel has trampled UN law underfoot; yet Israel is not responsible for the cynical attitude of the USA which has sold its veto & its soul to Israeli advocates of the worse.
Palestine is ruled solely by Yassir Arafat and his Fatah Party and there is only a very weak opposition which has no political power
Palestine is an occupied, ruined, martyrised, mocked, humiliated, forgotten country ransacked by Israel. I don’t blame the Palestinians for this kind of political flaws.
but to view Israel is the aggressor when it is their citizens being targeted for genocide is simply unfair
Calling genocide the series of coward bombings targetting civilians is a huge shame on you, Jay. Why don’t you display an equivalent amount of energy to defend the ethnocide perpetrated by Tsahal? You lost the very last bit of credibility about Israel. Sad for you.
You accuse Israel of racism and colonialism, yet you present no evidence to back up your case. Such an attitude that singles out Israel for condemnation can be called nothing less than anti-Semitic. The truth based on the facts show an entirely different picture.
Call them Arab Israelis or Israeli Arabs (there is no difference between the two), they have full citizenship rights in Israel, including representation in the Knesset. Name one single Arab nation that extends the same rights to Jews. In fact, Arab Israelis have a higher life expectancy and better quality of life than their counterparts in Arab nations. Life expectancy for an Arab Isreal is around 75 years. A Syranian has a life expectancy of around 60.
Again, your response does not have any relation to my argument. It is clear that Israel supports a two-state solution to this conflict, and it shows by Ehud Barak’s offer to Arafat in 2000 (which Barak rejected to the horror of even other Arab leaders) to efforts towards the “road map” this summer. In each case, the Palestinians have chosen the path of violence rather than a true and fair negotiation with Israel. Israel has accepted a two-state solution since the Peel partition plan of 1938. In fact, the idea of an independent “Palestine” is only a recent invention – before the Palestinians were evicted from Jordan the call has always been for what is now considered “Palestine” to be part of either Jordan or Syria.
The International Monetary Fund has found that Yassir Arafat personally stole $800 million from the treasury of the Palestinian Authority. It is clear that the Palestinian leadership has done absolutely nothing to improve conditions under their leadership. In fact, in the times of Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza infant mortality rates fell from 100-150 deaths per live birth during the period of Jordanian and Egyptian control to 20-25 deaths per live birth in 1994 at the end of Israeli control. Between 1967 and 1994 when Israel was in control of all Palestinian medical infrastructure 90% of all Palestinian children were immunized against common childhood diseases that had claimed thousands of lives.
Again, your reaction is simply anti-Semitic. You blame the Jews for the Palestinians problems while ignoring the massive corruption and the facts that Israel was responsible for improving Palestinian infrastructure, not destroying it.
Again, you are justifying the murder of innocent Jews. Genocide doesn’t just happen all at once – and remember, the IDF stops 80% of all suicide bombing attempts. It isn’t just a few crazies, it is an organized campaign to kill as many Jews as possible.
The reason why more Palestinians are dying is that the Israels have better medical care, which a recent study has found reduces the mortality rate from suicide bombings by 70%. (The Palestinians have a policy that wounded Palestinians will not be transferred to Israeli hospitals despite the fact that they do not have the resources to adaquitely treat victims. Furthermore, Israel has and does treat Palestinian victims if they are found by Israelis, saving the lives of thousands of Palestinians who would otherwise have died.)
Furthermore, when one takes a look at the demographics of the casualties in this war, one finds that only 30% of Palestinian causualties were of non-combatants. The other 70% were bomb makers, suicide bombers, militant leaders, or terrorists. By comparison 80% of Israeli casualties were non-combatants (which excludes deaths of IDF personnel in non-combat situations).
When the figures are compared for more non-combatant Israelis are killed at the hands of Palestinians than non-combatant Palestinians are killed by Israel. Furthermore, the Palestinians deliberately targeted women and children for terrorist attack while Israel has only targeted those involved in terror. While some innocents have died in IDF actions, that is not morally equivalent to acts which are deliberately designed to target non-combatants.
Your arguments against Israel are based on personal bias and hatred rather than the facts. I can cite sources for every argument I’ve just made while your arguments are made from personal bias in spite of the facts. Such an attitude can only be called anti-Semitic as it deliberately targets the Jews for condemnation in spite of the fact that they are not responsible for any of the accusations you have levelled against them.
ehhh! whats the difference children vs. adults. No matter whos blood is spilled its still an innocent person killed.
ehhh! whats the difference children vs. adults. No matter whos blood is spilled its still an innocent person killed.