See, personally, I have no feelings towards Jewish people one way or another in regards to being Jewish; it’s just another religion to me.
But I have a hard time rationalizing a nation whose soldiers grabbed an innocent student, pushed his face into the ground with a boot, and put a bullet in his head as the actions of a state “just trying to protect itself from terror.”
I don’t think that makes me anti-Semitic, and it’s a slap in the face of the true suffering of the Jewish people to pretend that I am.
Of course attacking anyone as these people were attacked is wrong. But just because somebody Jewish was attacked, doesn’t mean the attacker is an anti-Semite.
From the article:
Evidently incited by the presence of an Israeli flag wrapped around the shoulders of Tamar Schuri, an Israeli student from Ben Gurion University, the first assailant ran at the group while its members were being guided through a model gas chamber and crematoria and began swearing and hurling anti-Semitic and anti-Israeli insults.
Some people can’t understand that singling out Israel for special condemnation above and beyond their neighbors (you know, the ones who are engaged in a bloody civil war now that they can’t keep killing Jews instead) is the very definition of anti-Semitism. The Holocaust disn’t happen because everyone in Germany hated the Jews – the Holocaust happened because those who did weren’t stopped. I can see that shameful tradition still lives on.
Some people can’t understand that singling out Israel for special condemnation above and beyond their neighbors (you know, the ones who are engaged in a bloody civil war now that they can’t keep killing Jews instead) is the very definition of anti-Semitism.
It’s not, though.
Israel is better than its neighbors. Its stronger and better-equipped, and they have the support of the most powerful nation on Earth.
The Palestinians have nothing. It’s fairly easy to see that they attack from desperation, and their suicide attacks have that desperate quality.
But why does Israel, with all that they have, need to grind a kid’s face in the dirt and put a bullet in his head? Why do they need to use Palestinian children as human shields?
Atrocities happen as a result of the actions of both sides. But Israel has a lot more choices about how they can handle the situation, so it makes it worse when they do bad things. It’s not unfair to single them out for failing to meet a higher standard, because unlike their neighbors, that higher standard is within reach of Israel.
What those kids did in the museum was stupid and reprehensible. But then wrapping an Israeli flag around one’s shoulders doesn’t sit well with me either, especially doing that in a Holocaust museum. I have nothing against any Jewish person for being Jewish. But if you don’t have serious moral issues with the steps that Israel regularly takes, then you’re not a good person.
The Palestinians have nothing. It’s fairly easy to see that they attack from desperation, and their suicide attacks have that desperate quality.
Mexicans have nothing. So I guess that means that slum-dwellers from Mexico City should be allowed to strap explosives to their chests and blow up Americans, right?
Black Africans in Sudan are being denied their human rights while the EU doesn’t have the balls or common sense to describe their situtation as genocide. So I guess by your reasoning they have the right to strap explosives to themselves and blow up the French.
There is no excuse for suicide bombing. NONE. I don’t give a flying fuck about what your supposed greivances are, deliberately attacking civilians in order to create the most casualties is never acceptable. Anyone who tries to cover up, whitewash, or ignore such actions has absolutely no claim to any kind of moral high ground.
Claiming that the Palestinians are incapable of the very most basic civilized behavior is racist and morally unacceptable. That is the most singularly shameful argument I’ve ever heard you say. It’s beyond disgusting.
Do you honestly think that the Palestinians are too fucking stupid to know that blowing up buses is morally unacceptable behavior? Do you think they’re such savages that the idea of strapping a bomb belt full of rat-poison soaked nails on in order to kill women and children doesn’t mean anything to them? That somehow the Palestinian people are so dumb that the very concept of right and wrong is alien to them? That they can’t tell the difference between an IDF soldier in a full uniform and a woman with her infant daughter on a bus?
Yet that is precisely what you’re arguing, as clear as day.
Yes, Israel has done reprehensible things. But arguing that a few isolated incidents is representative of all Israelis is anti-Semitism, pure and simple. Ignoring the fact that the Palestinians are habitual human-rights violators and engage in actions far beyond anything Israel does is anti-Semitism. When the Palestinians start calling their citizens to account as Israel does with its citizens then one can start making parallels.
And arguing that someone should not be able to display an Israeli flag at fucking Aushwitz sure as hell is anti-Semitic to the core. What next, making sure that nobody wears a Star of David or a kippa when going to the site where hundreds of thousands of their people were killed?
It’s no different than arguing that “well, she was wearing a short skirt, so what else did she expect when she got raped?”
This kind of bullshit is precisely what enabled the Holocaust. Apparently some people don’t get the concept of “never again“.
So I guess that means that slum-dwellers from Mexico City should be allowed to strap explosives to their chests and blow up Americans, right?
Again with the misrepresentation. Is it even possible for you to argue honestly, Jay? I guess not:
That is the most singularly shameful argument I’ve ever heard you say. It’s beyond disgusting.
Hrm, never said that, so how could you have heard it?
There is no excuse for suicide bombing.
Ok, what’s the excuse for using children as human shields? What’s the excuse for grinding a student’s face in the dirt and executing him? Just curious.
Palestine is a land of lawlessness; it’s difficult to imagine who is in a position to reign in hundreds of terrorist cells. That doesn’t excuse them, but it’s racist to fault all of the Palestinians for the actions of a minority.
On the other hand, Israel is a nation of laws. When soldiers behave lawlessly, someone should be held to account, because the authorities could have stopped it.
That’s why Israel deserves greater criticism, even though the things they do aren’t as bad; they’re in a greater position to prevent it.
It’s staggering that you’d rather knock down strawmen with your lackey Another(‘s) Thought (who’s never had a thought you didn’t have first) and call me racist than address this simple truth.
While I can understand the sympathy for Israel, I’ve long been curious why we don’t have as much sympathy for the Tibetans, the Armenians, and any number of other oppressed people who haven’t risen like a phoenix from the ashes yet…
Palestine is a land of lawlessness; it’s difficult to imagine who is in a position to reign in hundreds of terrorist cells. That doesn’t excuse them, but it’s racist to fault all of the Palestinians for the actions of a minority.
It’s not a minority. The Palestinians have consistantly embraced jihad above peace.
The fact is that Israel’s “crimes” are often based on lies (see the Jenin “massacre”) and are not even remotely comparable to the actions of the Palestinians. Yet Israel recieves a disproportionate blame for its actions. For instance, you write:
On the other hand, Israel is a nation of laws. When soldiers behave lawlessly, someone should be held to account, because the authorities could have stopped it.
How many Palestinian shahids are treated as criminals? How many of them end up being viewed as something to emulate?
There is absolutely no moral basis that argues that Israel, a democratic state that makes every attempt to treat those who have pledged themselves to destroying the Israeli state with human dignity (even ordering that the wall necessary to protect Israeli lives had to be moved to avoid inconveniencing Palestinians) and grants Israeli Arabs full citizenship and representation in the Knesset, is the moral equivalent of Palestine, a kleptocracy that is viscerally and obviously racist.
The only way one can make that comparison is by inflating Israel’s crimes while minimizing or excusing the clear and horrendous crimes committed by the Palestinians. That is the very essence of anti-Semitism.
Israel is not blameless, but arguing that it bears greater scrutiny than Palestine is simply untenable.
Perhaps you would like to address the fact that some Palestinians use their children as human shields.
I did address that, even though that’s not on-topic.
I challenge you to find any statement of mine that excuses Palestinians for their crimes.
You people seem to have some mindset where if you’re not on Israel’s side, you must think the Palestinians shit gold and can do no wrong. How you came to such a ludicrous position defies any sort of logic.
I’m on no one’s side. Israel is generally as bad as Palestine.
The Palestinians have consistantly embraced jihad above peace.
Many of them, yes.
Many Israelis have embraced racism and oppression instead of peace, as well.
Yet Israel recieves a disproportionate blame for its actions.
No, Israel recieved proportionate blame for it’s results: Israel continually leads the “non-combatant gap”, killing more Palestininan noncombatants than have been killed on the Israeli side.
There is absolutely no moral basis that argues that Israel, a democratic state that makes every attempt to treat those who have pledged themselves to destroying the Israeli state with human dignity
Where was the dignity of that student when they ground his face into the dirt and put a bullet in his head?
Israel is not blameless, but arguing that it bears greater scrutiny than Palestine is simply untenable.
Not only is it tenable, it’s the only rational procedure, given the one-sided US support for the nation. They deserve greater scrutiny simply because we do so much to support them.
Perhaps you would like to address the fact that some Palestinians use their children as human shields. Or does that criticism run only one way with you?
If not to style me as a Palestinian sympathiser? But you know, feel free to talk out of both sides of your mouth.
I made that statement because you were very eager to talk about Israeli troops using human shields, but I did not see the same comment about terrorists using human shields. By pointing out this contradiction, I in no way stated that you were a Palestinian terror sympathizer. I did point out that you were inconsistent in your criticims, making them intellectually and morally worthless. You seem content to use straw men to play semantics games while you drop the majority of my arguments. That’s usually not the way to do well in any debate, but to each their own.
I did point out that you were inconsistent in your criticims, making them intellectually and morally worthless.
As a matter of fact, I did criticize Palestine. Remember when I said:
Atrocities happen as a result of the actions of both sides.
I don’t understand how I could have made it clearer without being accused of inconsistent criticism of the Palestinians. So, again, please refrain from misrepresenting my arguments.
You seem content to use straw men to play semantics games while you drop the majority of my arguments.
Until we clear up your repeated misrepresentations, there’s no point in addressing any of your other points.
…And of course, where does this anti-semitism come from…the political left of the spectrum.
Many of the same people protesting against Bush are also deeply anti-Semitic. The ADL has even pointed this out on their website.
Many of the same people protesting against Bush are also deeply anti-Semitic.
Anti-Semitic? Or anti-Israel?
You do know there’s a difference, right? Reading some of the posts around here, you wouldn’t think so, sometimes.
See, personally, I have no feelings towards Jewish people one way or another in regards to being Jewish; it’s just another religion to me.
But I have a hard time rationalizing a nation whose soldiers grabbed an innocent student, pushed his face into the ground with a boot, and put a bullet in his head as the actions of a state “just trying to protect itself from terror.”
I don’t think that makes me anti-Semitic, and it’s a slap in the face of the true suffering of the Jewish people to pretend that I am.
From Chet:
From the article:
Some people can’t understand that singling out Israel for special condemnation above and beyond their neighbors (you know, the ones who are engaged in a bloody civil war now that they can’t keep killing Jews instead) is the very definition of anti-Semitism. The Holocaust disn’t happen because everyone in Germany hated the Jews – the Holocaust happened because those who did weren’t stopped. I can see that shameful tradition still lives on.
Some people can’t understand that singling out Israel for special condemnation above and beyond their neighbors (you know, the ones who are engaged in a bloody civil war now that they can’t keep killing Jews instead) is the very definition of anti-Semitism.
It’s not, though.
Israel is better than its neighbors. Its stronger and better-equipped, and they have the support of the most powerful nation on Earth.
The Palestinians have nothing. It’s fairly easy to see that they attack from desperation, and their suicide attacks have that desperate quality.
But why does Israel, with all that they have, need to grind a kid’s face in the dirt and put a bullet in his head? Why do they need to use Palestinian children as human shields?
Atrocities happen as a result of the actions of both sides. But Israel has a lot more choices about how they can handle the situation, so it makes it worse when they do bad things. It’s not unfair to single them out for failing to meet a higher standard, because unlike their neighbors, that higher standard is within reach of Israel.
What those kids did in the museum was stupid and reprehensible. But then wrapping an Israeli flag around one’s shoulders doesn’t sit well with me either, especially doing that in a Holocaust museum. I have nothing against any Jewish person for being Jewish. But if you don’t have serious moral issues with the steps that Israel regularly takes, then you’re not a good person.
Mexicans have nothing. So I guess that means that slum-dwellers from Mexico City should be allowed to strap explosives to their chests and blow up Americans, right?
Black Africans in Sudan are being denied their human rights while the EU doesn’t have the balls or common sense to describe their situtation as genocide. So I guess by your reasoning they have the right to strap explosives to themselves and blow up the French.
There is no excuse for suicide bombing. NONE. I don’t give a flying fuck about what your supposed greivances are, deliberately attacking civilians in order to create the most casualties is never acceptable. Anyone who tries to cover up, whitewash, or ignore such actions has absolutely no claim to any kind of moral high ground.
Claiming that the Palestinians are incapable of the very most basic civilized behavior is racist and morally unacceptable. That is the most singularly shameful argument I’ve ever heard you say. It’s beyond disgusting.
Do you honestly think that the Palestinians are too fucking stupid to know that blowing up buses is morally unacceptable behavior? Do you think they’re such savages that the idea of strapping a bomb belt full of rat-poison soaked nails on in order to kill women and children doesn’t mean anything to them? That somehow the Palestinian people are so dumb that the very concept of right and wrong is alien to them? That they can’t tell the difference between an IDF soldier in a full uniform and a woman with her infant daughter on a bus?
Yet that is precisely what you’re arguing, as clear as day.
Yes, Israel has done reprehensible things. But arguing that a few isolated incidents is representative of all Israelis is anti-Semitism, pure and simple. Ignoring the fact that the Palestinians are habitual human-rights violators and engage in actions far beyond anything Israel does is anti-Semitism. When the Palestinians start calling their citizens to account as Israel does with its citizens then one can start making parallels.
And arguing that someone should not be able to display an Israeli flag at fucking Aushwitz sure as hell is anti-Semitic to the core. What next, making sure that nobody wears a Star of David or a kippa when going to the site where hundreds of thousands of their people were killed?
It’s no different than arguing that “well, she was wearing a short skirt, so what else did she expect when she got raped?”
This kind of bullshit is precisely what enabled the Holocaust. Apparently some people don’t get the concept of “never again“.
So I guess that means that slum-dwellers from Mexico City should be allowed to strap explosives to their chests and blow up Americans, right?
Again with the misrepresentation. Is it even possible for you to argue honestly, Jay? I guess not:
That is the most singularly shameful argument I’ve ever heard you say. It’s beyond disgusting.
Hrm, never said that, so how could you have heard it?
There is no excuse for suicide bombing.
Ok, what’s the excuse for using children as human shields? What’s the excuse for grinding a student’s face in the dirt and executing him? Just curious.
Palestine is a land of lawlessness; it’s difficult to imagine who is in a position to reign in hundreds of terrorist cells. That doesn’t excuse them, but it’s racist to fault all of the Palestinians for the actions of a minority.
On the other hand, Israel is a nation of laws. When soldiers behave lawlessly, someone should be held to account, because the authorities could have stopped it.
That’s why Israel deserves greater criticism, even though the things they do aren’t as bad; they’re in a greater position to prevent it.
It’s staggering that you’d rather knock down strawmen with your lackey Another(‘s) Thought (who’s never had a thought you didn’t have first) and call me racist than address this simple truth.
While I can understand the sympathy for Israel, I’ve long been curious why we don’t have as much sympathy for the Tibetans, the Armenians, and any number of other oppressed people who haven’t risen like a phoenix from the ashes yet…
It’s not a minority. The Palestinians have consistantly embraced jihad above peace.
The fact is that Israel’s “crimes” are often based on lies (see the Jenin “massacre”) and are not even remotely comparable to the actions of the Palestinians. Yet Israel recieves a disproportionate blame for its actions. For instance, you write:
Which is exactly what is happening.
How many Palestinian shahids are treated as criminals? How many of them end up being viewed as something to emulate?
There is absolutely no moral basis that argues that Israel, a democratic state that makes every attempt to treat those who have pledged themselves to destroying the Israeli state with human dignity (even ordering that the wall necessary to protect Israeli lives had to be moved to avoid inconveniencing Palestinians) and grants Israeli Arabs full citizenship and representation in the Knesset, is the moral equivalent of Palestine, a kleptocracy that is viscerally and obviously racist.
The only way one can make that comparison is by inflating Israel’s crimes while minimizing or excusing the clear and horrendous crimes committed by the Palestinians. That is the very essence of anti-Semitism.
Israel is not blameless, but arguing that it bears greater scrutiny than Palestine is simply untenable.
Perhaps you would like to address the fact that some Palestinians use their children as human shields.
I did address that, even though that’s not on-topic.
I challenge you to find any statement of mine that excuses Palestinians for their crimes.
You people seem to have some mindset where if you’re not on Israel’s side, you must think the Palestinians shit gold and can do no wrong. How you came to such a ludicrous position defies any sort of logic.
I’m on no one’s side. Israel is generally as bad as Palestine.
The Palestinians have consistantly embraced jihad above peace.
Many of them, yes.
Many Israelis have embraced racism and oppression instead of peace, as well.
Yet Israel recieves a disproportionate blame for its actions.
No, Israel recieved proportionate blame for it’s results: Israel continually leads the “non-combatant gap”, killing more Palestininan noncombatants than have been killed on the Israeli side.
There is absolutely no moral basis that argues that Israel, a democratic state that makes every attempt to treat those who have pledged themselves to destroying the Israeli state with human dignity
Where was the dignity of that student when they ground his face into the dirt and put a bullet in his head?
Israel is not blameless, but arguing that it bears greater scrutiny than Palestine is simply untenable.
Not only is it tenable, it’s the only rational procedure, given the one-sided US support for the nation. They deserve greater scrutiny simply because we do so much to support them.
I never said it wasn’t
Then what was the point of this?
Perhaps you would like to address the fact that some Palestinians use their children as human shields. Or does that criticism run only one way with you?
If not to style me as a Palestinian sympathiser? But you know, feel free to talk out of both sides of your mouth.
I made that statement because you were very eager to talk about Israeli troops using human shields, but I did not see the same comment about terrorists using human shields. By pointing out this contradiction, I in no way stated that you were a Palestinian terror sympathizer. I did point out that you were inconsistent in your criticims, making them intellectually and morally worthless. You seem content to use straw men to play semantics games while you drop the majority of my arguments. That’s usually not the way to do well in any debate, but to each their own.
I did point out that you were inconsistent in your criticims, making them intellectually and morally worthless.
As a matter of fact, I did criticize Palestine. Remember when I said:
Atrocities happen as a result of the actions of both sides.
I don’t understand how I could have made it clearer without being accused of inconsistent criticism of the Palestinians. So, again, please refrain from misrepresenting my arguments.
You seem content to use straw men to play semantics games while you drop the majority of my arguments.
Until we clear up your repeated misrepresentations, there’s no point in addressing any of your other points.