Well, maybe this has something to do with Israel continuing the extention of existing colonies, ignoring the “road map” assignment. If Israel does not respect its obligation to move to peaceful relations with palestinians, and keep destroyig palestinian houses to build their own, why should palesinians stick to their duties, and die in silence?
Your decision to look at only one side of the problem is stupid, and will never solve anything. The only thing you are doing is aggravating the ressentment of these communities against each other. I tend to believe that this is what you really want in the end.
Well, maybe this has something to do with Israel continuing the extention of existing colonies, ignoring the “road map†assignment. If Israel does not respect its obligation to move to peaceful relations with palestinians, and keep destroyig palestinian houses to build their own, why should palesinians stick to their duties, and die in silence?
Of course, this is the same wall that Kerry was against (while speaking in front of a group of Arab Americans) before he was for it (when speaking to the Jerusalem Post).
Your argument certainly doesn’t address both sides. These attacks have nothing to do righteous resistance to occupation. The Hamas Movement says it does not want peace, but Israel wiped off the map. These people are a stain on legitimate Palestinian nationalism, and a stain on humanity. Suicide bombings are the worst form of collective punishment. If you want to talk about Israeli ills, then do so at a different time. But your silence in condemning this slaughter of 15 innocents is deafening.
I’ll join in condemnation of these attacks. You don’t have to be on the same side of the debate to agree with someone that the slaugher of innocents is wrong and disgusting.
I do not support these attacks, and I personnaly did not helped strapping the kid with bombs, neither demonstrated to support Hamas. I am always REACTING to the sayings of Jay, which are favoring one side over the other, even though innocents are evenly and disgutingly dying on both sides.
The problem of Hamas is not that it is commiting atrocities one after the other, it is that it has the full support of the whole palestinian population, and therefore cannot be stopped, as a kid will replace his dead father to revenge the grandfather, and so on… If Israel was fair in punishing the right persons, and not bombing the whole neighbourhood where one terrorist potentialy lives, the population would maybe cooperate to bust them, or at least not cover up terrorists. Israel treats every palestinian as a terrorist, and guess what, all palestinians now feel linked to terrorism and Hamas. This is called a vicious spiral. Not understanding that cristal clear fact is dangerous for both sides of the border.
Should Israel decide to be peaceful, they would receive peace. I do think they do not want peace, as this state of war give them a legitimation to the occupation of palestinian territories, the taking-over of large chunk of land, the building of the barrier validating these take-over, and eventually keep disorder in palestine so that they can then never stabilise, and will eat them inch after inch. At least the Hamas is fair when it reveals its real intentions (which I do not support). Israel never openly claims that they do not want a palestinian state, because their aim is to come back to the “big Israel” which include all palestinian territories.
Chris, you have a dangerous logic. In fact palestinians did “Splodeydope themselves at lower rates”, and when you say lower rates, you couldn’t be more right, because attacks did almost stop for the last three months. Of course, those who lost an innocent relative recently in an attack are not going to care much about any cease-fire, but in any case, the attacks did reduce a lot, security has been reorganised detached from Arafat’s personal hand, and palestinian security services have collaborated in the arrest of terrorist in Gaza just last week. Palestinians do indeed hold their end of the road map.
This is the very danger in the politic of Israel, and this is why it should be condemn. Fighting terrorism in the name of democracy means that you have higher standards of humanity than your bloody opponent. In reacting just like them (you retaliate, we retaliate…), Israel is not proving its so-claimed moral superiority on terrorist. They are just at the same type of barbarians.
The murder of 15 innocent cannot be justified, but condemning only the consequence and never the root of it is patently biased, stupid and useless (unless your real aim is to keep this war alive).
Then again, I’m just an anti-semitic french (like we all are), and therefore shouldn’t dare talking about this so great democracy of Israel, which is the only country in the region hiding WMDs and legitimating the use of torture.
Your double standards are laughable, Jay. Impliying that I do support bombings when knowing me is just absurd propaganda.
Just found this very interesting website…the arguments are the same as those Jay uses all the time: “if you disagree with us, you are anti-semit!!” (most of you may very well feel concerned as the target is the state dept.)
kahane.org is a Zionist extremist website that is linked to rabbi Meir Kahane. This man was barred from serving in the Knesset by Israel. His racist version of zionism has never been endorsed by anything more than a tiny fraction of the Israeli population.
Jay has said many times that you can legitmately critcize Israel. I’ve done it on this forum myself, and Jay has never called me an anti-semite.
As for your arguments on Hamas, do you not feel that what they are doing is collective punishment. If indeed the movements like Hamas were not so fascist and nihlistic in their outlook, the Israeli response would not be as harsh.
If Yasser Arafat and his PA did their job and arrested Palestinian terrorists, the Israeli forces would not need to be so vigorous in their response.
Do you really think the Palestinian Authority wants peace? Even though it has a cozy relationship with Islamic Jihad, Hamas, and the marxist Popular Front for the Liberaiton of Palestine. Arafat has given checks to the families of suicide bombers. Is this what a peace loving democrat does?
Israel has tried peace several times, each time the Palestinians rejected an idea of a Jewish state. Your argument that if Israel backs off, so will the islamofascists has absolutely no root in history.
And when you say Israel, please just say Likkud. Are you aware of how much diversity there is in Israeli political opinion? You have dove parties such as Yachud and One Nation, Arab parties such as Balad, United Arab List, and Hadash. You have parties such as Labour and Shinui which are interested in a Palestinian state provided secure borders.
Yet here you are Vincent, practically lumping the entire Israeli populace into one big monolith that supports Zionist expansion.
At the same time you have painted the Palestinian movement as peace loving. There are peace loving people in Palestine. I have heard some of these people speak (Mitri Raheb and Naim Ateek- both christian ministers), but the peace movement is marginalized by Arafat who allows no dissent. Please look at his recent crackdowns ont he PFLP for suggesting a different route.
In Israel you have groups like B’Tselem and Peace Now marching in the streets when there are excesses of violence on the Israeli side. In Palestine you have the PA sponsoring museums dedicated to terror attacks. There is one such made which celebrates the Jerusalem Sbarro Restaurant bombings.
Which side is more barbaric Vincent? If Jay is biased, you are certainly much worse.
One other thing about Meir Kahane (whom kahane.org is named after). He set up the Jewish Defense League, which is a extremist group in the united states that was likely behind a number of attacks on Arab-Americans (Alex Odeh’s murder in the early 1980’s, and the attempted plan to attack the King Fahd Mosque and arab-american congressman Darrel Issa a few years back). The JDL has no mainstream support and has been roundly condemned by the Anti-Defamation League of B’nei Brith.
To try to lump Jay as being ideologically similar to Kach Chai/Meir Kahane/JDL is irresponsible and false. In the future it would be wise to know who you are comparing Jay to, before you make such statements. I find your position to be totally intellectually dishonest.
“but condemning only the consequence and never the root of it is patently biased,”
One last comment on this. Are you willing to condemn the Arab propaganda and brainwashing and hatred of the Hamas and Islamic Jihad sponsored popular culture in Palestine. More than anything that is the root of this. But seeing how anti-semitism in your own backyard in France was someone else’s fault by your own skewed logic, I guess it will be hard to pin you down on criticizing this hatred in Palestine either.
Justin,
1-I did not compare Jay’s position to Kahane’s. I only compared its use of the “you’re anti-semitic anyway, you shouldn’t dare talking” argument, that is an abject way of refusing any criticism and debate.
2-I know Israël is not the likkud, but as far as the situation is today, only the likkud’s views are being applied for real and supported by the US. So yes, today, when I say “Israel”, I am talking about the present government of Israel. Did you build such a weak argument only to show off your detailed knowledge about israel’s political parties?
3- If you don’t like collective punishment, how do you feel about destroying a buidling where 100 people live because ONE terrorist also lives in it? Or what about “walling off” THOUSANDS of palestinians because a few activists live in the same region?
4-Any arab propaganda would have no effect on the population if the ressentment against Israel wasn’t that big.
Stop the “egg or chicken was first?” debate, and go for the solution to bring peace now. The cycle of violence has to be broken by someone, instead of always retaliating to something already done in retaliation. If Israel really is a democracy with high respect for human beings as it claims, it should make the first move instaed of expecting an uneducated countryless population ruled by an old terrorist to make it first.
One last comment, one last time, I do NOT support the Hamas or any of its activities. I don’t even think of them as a relevant actor in the process. But shoot their leaders with missiles while they are going through the marketplace is an atrocity, just as much as the Jerusalem Sbarro Restaurant bombings.
I don’t even think of them [Hamas] as a relevant actor in the process.
I’m guessing that fifteen murdered Israelis (and that’s just this last bombing; never mind the hundreds murdered by Hamas before that) would disagree with that statement.
And, yes, I do draw a distinction between innocents killed by Israel and innocents targeted by the terrorists. The former are a sad side effect of Israel’s attempt to kill the terrorists hiding among them; the latter are murdered as a matter of policy because the terrorists get their clocks cleaned whenever they try to go against the IDF.
Well, maybe this has something to do with Israel continuing the extention of existing colonies, ignoring the “road map” assignment. If Israel does not respect its obligation to move to peaceful relations with palestinians, and keep destroyig palestinian houses to build their own, why should palesinians stick to their duties, and die in silence?
Your decision to look at only one side of the problem is stupid, and will never solve anything. The only thing you are doing is aggravating the ressentment of these communities against each other. I tend to believe that this is what you really want in the end.
So that justifies the murder of 15 innocents?
Shameful.
What, exactly, have the Palis done to hold up their end of the deal? Splodeydope themselves at lower rates than in the past? BFW.
Of course, this is the same wall that Kerry was against (while speaking in front of a group of Arab Americans) before he was for it (when speaking to the Jerusalem Post).
Vincent-
Your argument certainly doesn’t address both sides. These attacks have nothing to do righteous resistance to occupation. The Hamas Movement says it does not want peace, but Israel wiped off the map. These people are a stain on legitimate Palestinian nationalism, and a stain on humanity. Suicide bombings are the worst form of collective punishment. If you want to talk about Israeli ills, then do so at a different time. But your silence in condemning this slaughter of 15 innocents is deafening.
I’ll join in condemnation of these attacks. You don’t have to be on the same side of the debate to agree with someone that the slaugher of innocents is wrong and disgusting.
I do not support these attacks, and I personnaly did not helped strapping the kid with bombs, neither demonstrated to support Hamas. I am always REACTING to the sayings of Jay, which are favoring one side over the other, even though innocents are evenly and disgutingly dying on both sides.
The problem of Hamas is not that it is commiting atrocities one after the other, it is that it has the full support of the whole palestinian population, and therefore cannot be stopped, as a kid will replace his dead father to revenge the grandfather, and so on… If Israel was fair in punishing the right persons, and not bombing the whole neighbourhood where one terrorist potentialy lives, the population would maybe cooperate to bust them, or at least not cover up terrorists. Israel treats every palestinian as a terrorist, and guess what, all palestinians now feel linked to terrorism and Hamas. This is called a vicious spiral. Not understanding that cristal clear fact is dangerous for both sides of the border.
Should Israel decide to be peaceful, they would receive peace. I do think they do not want peace, as this state of war give them a legitimation to the occupation of palestinian territories, the taking-over of large chunk of land, the building of the barrier validating these take-over, and eventually keep disorder in palestine so that they can then never stabilise, and will eat them inch after inch. At least the Hamas is fair when it reveals its real intentions (which I do not support). Israel never openly claims that they do not want a palestinian state, because their aim is to come back to the “big Israel” which include all palestinian territories.
Chris, you have a dangerous logic. In fact palestinians did “Splodeydope themselves at lower rates”, and when you say lower rates, you couldn’t be more right, because attacks did almost stop for the last three months. Of course, those who lost an innocent relative recently in an attack are not going to care much about any cease-fire, but in any case, the attacks did reduce a lot, security has been reorganised detached from Arafat’s personal hand, and palestinian security services have collaborated in the arrest of terrorist in Gaza just last week. Palestinians do indeed hold their end of the road map.
This is the very danger in the politic of Israel, and this is why it should be condemn. Fighting terrorism in the name of democracy means that you have higher standards of humanity than your bloody opponent. In reacting just like them (you retaliate, we retaliate…), Israel is not proving its so-claimed moral superiority on terrorist. They are just at the same type of barbarians.
The murder of 15 innocent cannot be justified, but condemning only the consequence and never the root of it is patently biased, stupid and useless (unless your real aim is to keep this war alive).
Then again, I’m just an anti-semitic french (like we all are), and therefore shouldn’t dare talking about this so great democracy of Israel, which is the only country in the region hiding WMDs and legitimating the use of torture.
Your double standards are laughable, Jay. Impliying that I do support bombings when knowing me is just absurd propaganda.
Just found this very interesting website…the arguments are the same as those Jay uses all the time: “if you disagree with us, you are anti-semit!!” (most of you may very well feel concerned as the target is the state dept.)
http://www.kahane.org/response1.html
Cry over your opponent’s racism is very often a bad excuse.
Vicent-
kahane.org is a Zionist extremist website that is linked to rabbi Meir Kahane. This man was barred from serving in the Knesset by Israel. His racist version of zionism has never been endorsed by anything more than a tiny fraction of the Israeli population.
Jay has said many times that you can legitmately critcize Israel. I’ve done it on this forum myself, and Jay has never called me an anti-semite.
As for your arguments on Hamas, do you not feel that what they are doing is collective punishment. If indeed the movements like Hamas were not so fascist and nihlistic in their outlook, the Israeli response would not be as harsh.
If Yasser Arafat and his PA did their job and arrested Palestinian terrorists, the Israeli forces would not need to be so vigorous in their response.
Do you really think the Palestinian Authority wants peace? Even though it has a cozy relationship with Islamic Jihad, Hamas, and the marxist Popular Front for the Liberaiton of Palestine. Arafat has given checks to the families of suicide bombers. Is this what a peace loving democrat does?
Israel has tried peace several times, each time the Palestinians rejected an idea of a Jewish state. Your argument that if Israel backs off, so will the islamofascists has absolutely no root in history.
And when you say Israel, please just say Likkud. Are you aware of how much diversity there is in Israeli political opinion? You have dove parties such as Yachud and One Nation, Arab parties such as Balad, United Arab List, and Hadash. You have parties such as Labour and Shinui which are interested in a Palestinian state provided secure borders.
Yet here you are Vincent, practically lumping the entire Israeli populace into one big monolith that supports Zionist expansion.
At the same time you have painted the Palestinian movement as peace loving. There are peace loving people in Palestine. I have heard some of these people speak (Mitri Raheb and Naim Ateek- both christian ministers), but the peace movement is marginalized by Arafat who allows no dissent. Please look at his recent crackdowns ont he PFLP for suggesting a different route.
In Israel you have groups like B’Tselem and Peace Now marching in the streets when there are excesses of violence on the Israeli side. In Palestine you have the PA sponsoring museums dedicated to terror attacks. There is one such made which celebrates the Jerusalem Sbarro Restaurant bombings.
Which side is more barbaric Vincent? If Jay is biased, you are certainly much worse.
One other thing about Meir Kahane (whom kahane.org is named after). He set up the Jewish Defense League, which is a extremist group in the united states that was likely behind a number of attacks on Arab-Americans (Alex Odeh’s murder in the early 1980’s, and the attempted plan to attack the King Fahd Mosque and arab-american congressman Darrel Issa a few years back). The JDL has no mainstream support and has been roundly condemned by the Anti-Defamation League of B’nei Brith.
To try to lump Jay as being ideologically similar to Kach Chai/Meir Kahane/JDL is irresponsible and false. In the future it would be wise to know who you are comparing Jay to, before you make such statements. I find your position to be totally intellectually dishonest.
“but condemning only the consequence and never the root of it is patently biased,”
One last comment on this. Are you willing to condemn the Arab propaganda and brainwashing and hatred of the Hamas and Islamic Jihad sponsored popular culture in Palestine. More than anything that is the root of this. But seeing how anti-semitism in your own backyard in France was someone else’s fault by your own skewed logic, I guess it will be hard to pin you down on criticizing this hatred in Palestine either.
Justin,
1-I did not compare Jay’s position to Kahane’s. I only compared its use of the “you’re anti-semitic anyway, you shouldn’t dare talking” argument, that is an abject way of refusing any criticism and debate.
2-I know Israël is not the likkud, but as far as the situation is today, only the likkud’s views are being applied for real and supported by the US. So yes, today, when I say “Israel”, I am talking about the present government of Israel. Did you build such a weak argument only to show off your detailed knowledge about israel’s political parties?
3- If you don’t like collective punishment, how do you feel about destroying a buidling where 100 people live because ONE terrorist also lives in it? Or what about “walling off” THOUSANDS of palestinians because a few activists live in the same region?
4-Any arab propaganda would have no effect on the population if the ressentment against Israel wasn’t that big.
Stop the “egg or chicken was first?” debate, and go for the solution to bring peace now. The cycle of violence has to be broken by someone, instead of always retaliating to something already done in retaliation. If Israel really is a democracy with high respect for human beings as it claims, it should make the first move instaed of expecting an uneducated countryless population ruled by an old terrorist to make it first.
One last comment, one last time, I do NOT support the Hamas or any of its activities. I don’t even think of them as a relevant actor in the process. But shoot their leaders with missiles while they are going through the marketplace is an atrocity, just as much as the Jerusalem Sbarro Restaurant bombings.
I don’t even think of them [Hamas] as a relevant actor in the process.
I’m guessing that fifteen murdered Israelis (and that’s just this last bombing; never mind the hundreds murdered by Hamas before that) would disagree with that statement.
And, yes, I do draw a distinction between innocents killed by Israel and innocents targeted by the terrorists. The former are a sad side effect of Israel’s attempt to kill the terrorists hiding among them; the latter are murdered as a matter of policy because the terrorists get their clocks cleaned whenever they try to go against the IDF.