Mel Gibson is directing a film on the last 12 hours of the life of Jesus
to be filmed solely in Latin and Aramaic, the languages that would have been spoken at the time. He also plans to attempt to convince the studio not to use subtitles.
Other than the idea of refusing to use subtitles, this actually sounds like a really intriguing idea to me. A film on the life of Jesus in which the characters actually speak in the languages they spoke. If Gibson pulls this off correctly, it could be a gamble that would pay off for him. Certainly if he creates a portrayal of Jesus that doesn’t offend religious groups he’ll have a very large build-in audience that would flock to theatres en masse. Even people who don’t normally involve themselves in Christian media would be likely to see it just to see what all the fuss was about.
Say what you want about this plan, but let it never be said that Gibson doesn’t have chutzpah for this one. In a Hollywood in which the only thing that people seem to worship is the Almighty Dollar, seeing someone willing to take the chance on a labor of faith like this is a move worth applauding.
UPDATE: June 27, 2003 – Church of the Masses reviews the film. The review is very positive and even goes so far as to say "The Passion is a stunning work of art. It is a devout, act of worship from Mel and his collaborators – in the way that Handel’s Messiah and Notre Dame were artistic acts of worship in previous times."
UPDATE: July 12, 2003 – Ain’t It Cool News has managed to get ahold of a a teaser trailer to The Passion. The imagery and power of this film is undeniable. A word of warning – the trailer shows some powerful but disturbing images. Gibson has pulled no punches in showing the pain and suffering of Jesus’ last hours.
The film has yet to find a distributor.
UPDATE: February 26, 2003 – My review of The Passion of the Christ can be found here. Those who have had the highest expectations for this film will not be disappointed.
That sounds cool in extremis… I’d better start brushing up my Latin and Aramaic though- no subtitles!?!?!?!?
I think this is a great idea. I will bring to life the true sacrifice that the Father did for human kind. I do however think that to truely capture the death of Christ is to be there. To those of us who love Christ it will be a very moving movie. Oh, I do hope that there will be subtitles. I do find it funny that Latin and Aramaic are the two languages spoken. I have been taught that the languages of the time was Greek and Aramaic. I could be wrong. Oh yeah…Can I be in the movie too? LOL
This could be an amazing piece of realist filmmaking and a testament to Gibson’s visual savvy as a director. If he aprroaches the film the way I think he will, subtitles won’t be necessary.
The story will be in the actors physicality, their delivery and the camera’s interaction with them. In fact, if the film is immersive enough, we may actually learn some Latin and Aramaic in the process.
I look forward to seeing it.
I am a graduate student in New Testament Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Nicq is exactly right–the major languages of Jesus’ time were Greek and Aramaic, with less Latin. I have actually toyed with the idea of emailing Gibson’s people about this to make this suggestion. Any ideas about how to contact him?
I am so exited to see how this film comes out! 🙂 I think this whole idea is wonderful. Its great to see someone with as much fame as he, Mel Gibson, has do something so awsome for our faith. (“our” meaning all Catholics and Christians) I just pray that God inspires him throughout the set to do it as close as possible to the actual scene. If the languages of that time were Greek and Aramaic, I’m sure Mel Gibson will find out. Wether it be through you, Mr. Anderson, or not. A BIG thank you to Mel Gibson for saying “yes” to God’s call in his life. I love you for that Mel! 🙂
Love in Christ,
Jessica-Lynne
I speak Aramaic and I am very excited to see this movie. Aramaic is my mother language. For some of you want to learn this language 🙂 here is some key words …
Ahuno = Brother
emo = Mother
Babo = Father
Miklo = Food
Kum = Get up
Toug Larke = Come here
maye = water
haye = Life
… if this helpfull let me know i can post more here
I would like to contact Mel and it will be great if i can play role(small) in this Movie.
Later
This is going to be an extremely powerful movie, which if it is done accurately will allow us all to see and experience the pain and suffering that Jesus went through on our behalf. If Rome is attempting to stop this movie it is because Rome is responsible for His death…not the Jewish people. Pilate was a Roman and Christ was crucified on a Roman cross. I have read accounts from the Bible and from Doctors who explain the process of crucifixtion. Can’t wait to see how true this is to the actual event. Hopefully this will change lives as we really see how insignificant our problems are compared with the suffering of our Master.
I can’t wait for this film to come out! We live in a crazy world, one that so often overlooks what really matters….Faith, Hope, Love… this film is exactly what we need. No matter what your faith may be , we cannot forget this….Mel Gibson may be just the man to pull it off…
I can’t wait for this film to come out! We live in a crazy world, one that so often overlooks what really matters….Faith, Hope, Love… this film is exactly what we need. No matter what your faith may be , we cannot forget this….Mel Gibson may be just the man to pull it off…
1-15
I just saw Mel’s interview with Bill O’Reilly and am appalled that Mr. Gibson is actually being harassed for making this film. I guess it goes to show that there really are anti-Christ forces at work through people in the world. Our prayers are with you, Mel and may God bless your faithfulness!
Here’s a thougth, if you want the subtitles read the bible,
I heard that certain religious groups, those of whom hold much power in Hollywood, are trying to slander Mel Gibson’s name for creating an accurate truthful movie. Support must be give to Gibson’s production efforts. The truth should be known.
We say “God bless you” instead of good luck. Truly..God will bless Mel Gibson for standing up for Jesus Christ. He will be persecuted by many anti-christ (non-believers) but his reward is not on earthly terms.
TRUTH????
what truth??
The Last 12hours of JC are completely UNKNOWN!
The New Testiment was written decades after..
Get Real… find another REALITY MODEL..
religion is a crutch for weak minded idiots..
Get real? Here’s reality for you Jeff. An innocent Christ was crucified and rose from the dead – there were over 500 witnesses. And no court of law requires that many witnesses to testify to the truth. A truly weak mind is one that doesn’t have the courage to investigate the whole truth but accepts the words of another weak mind. If you have the courage and WANT to know the truth, read Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell. Then read any one of the Gospels and the book of Acts in the Bible. I DARE you ! As for Mel Gibson, God himself will protect and defend him as he reveals the truth. No doubt enemies will come against him. Just as they do anyone who refuses to compromise the truth.
O’REILLY: Is it going to upset any Jewish people?
GIBSON: It may. It’s not meant to.
I think it’s meant to just tell the truth. I want to be as truthful as possible. But, when you look at the reasons behind why Christ came, why he was crucified, he died for all mankind and he suffered for all mankind, so that, really, anybody who transgresses has to look at their own part or look at their own culpability.
It’s time to sort of get back to a basic message, the message that was given. At this time, the world has gone nuts, I think. And this film speaks — well, Christ spoke of faith, hope, love and forgiveness. And these are things I think we need to be reminded of again. He forgave as he was tortured and killed. And we could do with a little of that behavior.
From: Transcript of the 1/14/2003 @ http://www.melgibsonnews.com/transcript.html
Jeff:
You may be right that “religion is a crutch for weak minded idiots..”
It certainly makes me happy that being a Christian is not having a religion, but having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Those who don’t know Christ, don’t realize what they are missing!
Hi Jeff-
The Bible is full instances where God works miracles through weak people- weak in body, soul, spirit, and yes-mind. So when you say “religion is a crutch for weak minded idiots” you are right-partially. Weak minded-perhaps; idiots, baloney.
Jeff-
I’m sorry, I forgot one thing. You are in my prayers. I pray that some day you put away that faith in your strong mind and take up your crutch.
God Bless You-
Teresa
I’m kinda glad Gibson is trying to keep subtitles out of the production version. The message got across perfectly well without most people being able to read the scriptures (due to their inaccesibility and widespread illiteracy except among clergy and nobles) for nearly 1500 years. I’m sure if it can work, Gibson is one of the only folks that could make it work. Save the subtitles for the DVD.
From what I have heard and read, the film will be quite graphic … and that’s after they decided to tone down some parts for fear the film might be too gruesome to watch. For what it’s worth, it will much more accurately depict the true sufferings of Our Lord, which were unimaginably gruesome (during his flagellation most thorough accounts indicate the skin of His back was likely ripped mostly off, and that’s just a small part of the whole Passion).
I’m glad someone has the courage to take on such a project to show the reality of the Passion … and not just some nice story which turns Christ’s sufferings into a light burden and painless execution.
Hopefully for the faithful it will reaffirm their faith and help them to see exactly how much the sins of the world, our sins, made Him suffer. And for those non-Christian, to relaize, that at the absolute very least, Christ is someone to be respected for the horrible things he had to endure and all for preaching the Law of Love: Sacrifice for others.
I’m anxiously awaiting the release of the film.
As a follow up … the reason Latin and Aramaic (Aramene) will be used is that the vernacular of the time in Judea was Aramaic, which is a later derivative of Hebrew. And Latin the language of the Roman Empire which called Judea part of the empire.
I assume Aramaic would be used for when Christ is speaking with the disiples and others not in the Roman Leadership … but when speaking to Pilate and other Romans would likely use Latin … If the story included the Last Supper or other religious ceremonies (and perhaps even the trial before the Sanhedrin) Hebrew or at least a bit of Hebrew would need to be used.
Greek was a prevalent language of the time and some of the Gospels and even some of the Old Testament had been written in Greek, but I don’t know that there would be any place where Christ meets Greeks during his Passion, and it was not the preferred language of the region, just as French or Spanish is spoken by many Americans, but English is the preferred language.
Prayers are welcome as I dont see them as being propagated to a supreme entity.
Reality is an omni-dimensional holographic projection of thought around which matter crystalizes.
Thoughts are Things.
You creat your reality or destroy it one thought at a time. Prayer is the mechanism.. There is not a being sitting somewhere taking notes.
Frequency and Intensity created the Universe.
as JC said..”know yea not that yea are Gods, these things I do so shall you do also.”
Quantum Soup boys and girls… color it any way you want, we all come from the quantum field of infinite potenitality.
Propagate a thought wave,, when it collapses it comes back at you in substance.
Andrew…
I have to disagree. The entire new Testament was written in Greek. It was the spoken language of the Roman Empire. Latin, to my understanding, was the written language (on money, official documents, the sign on the cross, etc.). The Old Testament was written in Hebrew, but some was later translated into Greek.
Anyway, I really am interested in seeing how they portray the crucifixion. I have spoken on this topic several times, and I am intrigued by the idea of showing how it REALLY happened. It won’t be fun to watch, and I am not really looking forward to it…if you know what I mean. I am interested, though.
I will also be interested to see how faithfully the story line follows that of the Gospels. I mean, I hope they stick really close to the Bible. It really doesn’t need to add a lot of stuff that probably didn’t happen anyhow.
The Aramaic language is not dead. I am a teacher teaching this language in Sunday School and I have books that are published in this language.
Check my web site for Christmas cards in Aramaic and Assyrian languages. So, commenting on the up coming movie, if you need help brushing up on your Aramaic or need a consultant, just send some email.
I just happened to land at this site searching for info about Mel’s new movie. It takes someone of great faith, desire and financial means to pull off a movie like this and I’m very glad he is. I’d love to support his efforts in anyway I can. For now, I’ll stick to prayer! Great posts everyone!
Jeff,
I pray that someday you will become a believer. Please see the changes that came about in Paul’s life. Your life can change too for the better. Christ gives me strength. He is there with me to help me face trials.
Who is there with you.
In Christ’s name, Susan
Praise our God!!! This is a movie I’VE dreamed about creating for a looooooong time! In fact, I’ve done some deep study on Jesus’ last days and have begun to write about it. This movie will powerful in helping Christians identify with the supreme sacrifice that was given for us! I want to be a part of it!!
Can’t wait for this!!! Knowing a bit about Gibson’s philisophical side, it’s a wonder it’s taken him this long to do this type of movie. Following Mel’s film career – it seemed to have started with candy and action – in the last 10 years or so, he seems to be taking the leadership role in serious stuff (starting with Hamlet).
This movie will be like a sword. Mel will absolutely be attacked for making it. Incidentally, the movie will be based upon the Bible – but also draw in large part from Ann Catherine Emmerich’s “DOLOROUS PASSION OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST”. She was a mystic in the Catholic Church.
Susan
Been there, done that.
When I realized that it doesn’t matter who you pray to, as the results are the same,, I became a freelance spiritualist.
What ever gives you the biggest emotional boost during your prayer request will work the best. Be that a Tree, a Rock, sitting on a mountain, or hanging out in a church talking to a 2000 year old deceased soul.
Emotions are Key.. the greatest propagation technology is the emotion of Love. Its a tool of the soul..
Like baking a cake…
-emotions
-desired intent
-repetition
The one night I fail to watch O’Reilly and I miss Mel? We have been anxiously awaiting word about his movie and then this happens? Rats…
Anyhow, does anyone know about the cast members? I only know about James Caviezel in the role of Jesus (excellent choice!) so if anyone has more info, I’d love to hear it.
God will bless Mel and everyone affiliated w/this film. It is a work of love, faith and yes, passion. It will be an amazing accomplishment.
Laura
As long as this script does not divert from Canon I will be happy. When this does happen, it dilutes the pure Word of God, and as Revelation 22:18,19 states, I would not like to be responsible for adding or subtracting a single word or punctuation mark from the Bible. The Bible is dramatic enough, inspiring enough, living enough to change lives centuries after it was written down by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Nothing need be added or subtracted to be the Greatest Story Ever Told.
For Andrew…
Are you a Buddhist? On that point, I am merely curious.
As for your “Matrix” vision of reality, let me ask you something?
If you were, say, Samantha Runnion (the little girl recently brutally raped and murdered in
California), and you were with your tormentor, in a dark wood with no one around to rescue you, would you find comfort in your belief?
Could you say, “Ah, what I’m about to experience is ‘an omni-dimensional holographic projection of thought around which matter crystalizes.'”
Or if she were your sister, or daugher, would such
thinking “fit” the situation?
The death of Christ was not a hologram. It was
Love being crucified by sin. So is every little girl raped in the night.
Actually, I think my comments were for Jeff.
Sorry…first time to do this sort of thing.
Ralf:
I just wanted to say, Amen Brother! You are right on track. Christ’s death was devistating and pitiful, yet created a way of escape for each of us.
And for those like Jeff who are blinded by the lies of Satan, I pray that you will hear God’s knock on your heart’s door before it is too late. While Christ’s death was horrific enough, I am sure that it wont compare to the eternal anguish that you will fell as your soul burns in hell because you refused to ask Jesus to be your personal savior.
For the person who commented that regardless of what you pray to, the results are the same… obviously you don’t really know God. My God who is in heaven answers my prayers. Which is more than I can say for any rock on any mountain. And as for praying to a deceased soul when you go to church: Christ Rose from the dead. There were witness who saw him, and even Thomas touched him. This proves to me that he wasn’t just a ghost. this being said, how can you consider him a deceased soul? he took the victory from death and overcame it and rose from the dead! and is now sitting on the right hand of the Father.
May God richly bess you all, and may he have compassion and provide atleast one more chance to accept him for those who dont already know how wonderful He really is.
Your sister in Christ,
Jess
Hi, Jeff,
Very interesting post!
You said:
“Prayers are welcome as I dont see them as being propagated to a supreme entity.”
If not “propagated to a supreme entity”, just to whom do see them “propagated to”. A lesser “entity, perhaps?
You said:
“Reality is an omni-dimensional holographic projection of thought around which matter crystalizes.”
Wow! Tubular, dude! But can an “omni-dimensional holographic projection of thought” bear weight?
You said:
“Thoughts are Things.”
I guess so! The only question would seem to be, “Are thoughts matter things or merely energy things?”
You said:
“You creat your reality or destroy it one thought at a time. Prayer is the mechanism..”
Impressive concept. I think St. Thomas Aquinas might even find some commonality with it!
You said:
“There is not a being sitting somewhere taking notes.”
Really? And your proof is what, Jeff?
You said:
“Frequency and Intensity created the Universe.”
But who created “Frequency and Intensity”?
You said:
as JC said.. “know yea not that yea are Gods, these things I do so shall you do also.”
Jeff, how about providing Book, Chapter, and Verse for this quote of Jesus, the Christ? –
Perhaps the verse to which you refer goes:
John 10: 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long are you going to keep us in suspense? [11] If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you [12] and you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify to me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, [13] and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand. 30 [14] The Father and I are one.” 31 The Jews again picked up rocks to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God.” 34 [15] Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”‘? 35 If it calls them gods to whom the word of God came, and scripture cannot be set aside, 36 can you say that the one whom the Father has consecrated [16] and sent into the world blasphemes because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not perform my Father’s works, do not believe me; 38 but if I perform them, even if you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may realize (and understand) that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”
Footnotes
[11] Keep us in suspense: literally, “How long will you take away our life?” Cf John 11:48-50. If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly: cf Luke 22:67. This is the climax of Jesus’ encounters with the Jewish authorities. There has never yet been an open confession before them.
[12] I told you: probably at John 8:25 which was an evasive answer.
[13] The textual evidence for the first clause is very divided; it may also be translated: “As for the Father, what he has given me is greater than all,” or “My Father is greater than all, in what he has given me.”
[14] This is justification for John 10:29; it asserts unity of power and reveals that the words and deeds of Jesus are the words and deeds of God.
[15] This is a reference to the judges of Israel who, since they exercised the divine prerogative to judge (Deut 1:17), were called “gods”; cf Exodus 21:6, besides Psalm 82:6 from which the quotation comes.
[16] Consecrated: this may be a reference to the rededicated altar at the Hanukkah feast; see the note on John 10:22.
In this verse, Jesus, the Christ, quotes the from “A Psalm of Asaph”, which speaks of the those chosen by the Hebrew to be judges, which is “written in your (Mosaic) law”.
1 A psalm of Asaph. [1] God rises in the divine council, gives judgment in the midst of the gods. 2 “How long will you judge unjustly and favor the cause of the wicked? Selah 3 Defend the lowly and fatherless; render justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Rescue the lowly and poor; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.” 5 [2] The gods neither know nor understand, wandering about in darkness, and all the world’s foundations shake. 6 [3] I declare: “Gods though you be, offspring of the Most High all of you, 7 Yet like any mortal you shall die; like any prince you shall fall.” 8 [4] Arise, O God, judge the earth, for yours are all the nations.
Footnotes
[1] [Psalm 82] As in Psalm 58, the pagan gods are seen as subordinate divine beings to whom Israel’s God had delegated oversight of the foreign countries in the beginning (Deut 32:8-9). Now God arises in the heavenly assembly (Psalm 82:1) to rebuke the unjust “gods” (Psalm 82:2-4), who are stripped of divine status and reduced in rank to mortals (Psalm 82:5-7). They are accused of misruling the earth by not upholding the poor. A short prayer for universal justice concludes the psalm (Psalm 82:8).
[2] The gods are blind and unable to declare what is right. Their misrule shakes earth’s foundations (cf Psalm 11:3; 75:4), which God made firm in creation (Psalm 96:10).
[3] I declare: “Gods though you be”: in John 10:34 Jesus uses the verse to prove that those to whom the word of God is addressed can fittingly be called “gods.”
[4] Judge the earth: according to Deut 32:8-9, Israel’s God had originally assigned jurisdiction over the foreign nations to the subordinate deities, keeping Israel as a personal possession. Now God will directly take over the rulership of the whole world.
Jeff, the reference to “gods” has to do with the “god-like” quality of “judges” to judge. According to Mosaic Law, the Children of Israel appointed amongst themselves judges with the authority to perform the “god-like” function of judging them.
You said:
“Quantum Soup boys and girls… color it any way you want, we all come from the quantum field of infinite potenitality.”
And from whence comes the “Quantum Soup” and the “quantum field”, Jeff? Hmmm, “infinite potentiality” – isn’t this the ultimate “oxymon”?
After all, “potentiality” refers to a quality which is “not actuality”, while “infinite” refers to SOMETHING that “always is”.
You said:
“Propagate a thought wave,, when it collapses it comes back at you in substance.”
Are you sure? I suppose the logical question is then – who or what created “thought”?
You said:
“or hanging out in a church talking to a 2000 year old deceased soul.”
Now I know what your problem is, my friend. You haven’t heard the “good news”, Jeff. He isn’t dead, Christ has risen!
God Bless,
Neal
Neal
Everything you said would not hold up under scrutiny.. Quantum mechanics DOES..
Prove “Christ has Risen”, you can’t.
But I can prove “wave partical duality”. I can show, that “thoughts are things”, Action and Re-Action,, Cause and Effect, these are all hard rules of reality. I’ve read your books,, now you read mine.. try the entire series of Neale Donald Walsch, author of “conversations with god”. I have no problem with these books,, they keep the idea of a God thought field while at the same time support my arguments.
Neal
God is the software, the quantum field, if anything we are all god particles in the larger body of the universe. when we think and project thoughts , those those thoughts propagate throughout the entire universal field of reality.
JC knew this,,, what’s an easier Reality Model to swallow?
That there is some dude in a white robe sitting on a golden throne somewhere in space&time, occasionally throwing us a bone and mostly just tossing us smite bombs, being totally VAIN about himself, or that Reality is acutally a very complex assemble of quantum field mechanics that evolved over billions of years of evolution and from which sprang intelligence and order. ???
maybe you and I are god entities that have climbed inside our creation for a virtual experience.
Hi, Jeff,
Thanks for the reply.
You said:
“Everything you said would not hold up under scrutiny.. Quantum mechanics DOES..”
Jeff, if “quantum mechanics” holds up to scrutiny, it is only because my God “orders” the universe! Your “quantum mechanics” would cease to exist without my God!
You said:
“Prove “Christ has Risen”, you can’t.”
Yes I can, Jeff. There were many witnesses. Please provide your witnesses to the Quantum Soap.
You said:
“But I can prove “wave partical duality”.”
Perhaps you can. However, Jeff, that does not counter the FACT of the risen Christ.
You said:
“I can show, that “thoughts are things”, Action and Re-Action,, Cause and Effect, these are all hard rules of reality.”
Jeff, your problem is that in your universe you cannot define the ultimate Action or Cause. You are trapped by your own logic. There must be an ultimate “Action” or initial “Cause”. I am satisfied that there is and can define it. You can’t!
You said:
“I’ve read your books,, now you read mine.. try the entire series of Neale Donald Walsch, author of “conversations with god”. I have no problem with these books,, they keep the idea of a God thought field while at the same time support my arguments.”
As long as you accept the existence of God, then I suppose our discussion reverts around His (Its) definition. My God, Jeff, is the author of “order from of order” – the basis of your “quantum mechanics”. Yours is apparently “order from chaos”. If “re-action” demands “Action” or “effect” requires “Cause”, as you say, then your theories must logically fail without my God. In your universe you caannot define the original “Cause” nor the initial “Action”. Something had to initiate the “Big Bang”, Jeff!
God Bless,
Neal
Hi, Jeff,
You said:
“God is the software, the quantum field, if anything we are all god particles in the larger body of the universe. when we think and project thoughts , those those thoughts propagate throughout the entire universal field of reality.”
From whence comes these “god particles” of yours, Jeff?
You said:
“JC knew this,,, what’s an easier Reality Model to swallow?”
“That there is some dude in a white robe sitting on a golden throne somewhere in space&time, occasionally throwing us a bone and mostly just tossing us smite bombs, being totally VAIN about himself, or that Reality is acutally a very complex assemble of quantum field mechanics that evolved over billions of years of evolution and from which sprang intelligence and order. ???”
Jeff, I am afraid your definition of God (the straw-man you setup for ease of knockdown) is much more adequate than is your “model” that lacks any “beginning” at all and asks me to believe that my existence is merely a chance “ordering” of “chaos”.
All you need do is look at “man” to understand how “difficult” your theory really is, and how totally inadequate. There is a definite “plan” (order) in man’s creation, Jeff. This is the “truth”, and it is “self evident”! You would have us believe that man is the end result of “chaotic chance”. Impossible! Perhaps Aquinas might help you understand the error of your logic better than I can.
“Reply to Objection 2. Since nature works for a determinate end under the direction of a higher agent, whatever is done by nature must needs be traced back to God, as to its first cause. So also whatever is done voluntarily must also be traced back to some higher cause other than human reason or will, since these can change or fail; for all things that are changeable and capable of defect must be traced back to an immovable and self-necessary first principle, as was shown in the body of the Article.” (From: Summa Theologica – “Whether God exists?” at: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/100203.htm)
You said:
“maybe you and I are god entities that have climbed inside our creation for a virtual experience.”
Isn’t that just how Adam and Eve first got into this trouble in the first place, Jeff?
God Bless,
Neal
Mel, I know you’ve been raised up and moulded for this call! You do your do, and the rest He’ll do. The ointment on your life will break the yoke. Best wishes! Caleb
While I find the idea Mr. Gibson’s movie to be very intersesting, what I find still more interesting, even amazing, are the repeated comments of praise on this list for a movie that depicts the last twelve hours of Christ’s life and excruciating physical death. But what does that death mean? The fact that Jesus died a gruesome physical death IS NOT THE GOSPEL! If this movie simply depicts the awful pain and horrid death of Christ it is not only meaningless, but will actually pervert the truth regardless how close it tries to stick to the original text. The death that Christ feared and sweat over in the garden of Gethsemane was not the physical aspect (although he was certainly 100% physical and experienced fear, pain, etc.); what he feared was facing the wrath of God for every sinner who would ever believe. He went to the cross a man of grief and filled with sorrows not because he was going to be crucified (there have been plenty of martyrs who subsequently have faced such terrible deaths while singing Psalms and crying tears of joy), he went to the cross a man of sorrows because divine justice was going to be satisfied in his body as all the holy wrath of God against sin and evil was laid upon him. This is why he became a foul and repulsive thing in the sight of the Father as he hung on the cross and cried out, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?”
Furthermore, he didn’t go to that cross merely “innocent” (free of guilt), but he went to that cross “righteous” (perfectly obedient to the law of God unlike the first Adam who fell in the garden and plunged all of humanity into sin and corruption). Folks, unless we make clear the fact that Christ lived his life went to the cross to satisfy the demands of God’s law for all of His people, we HAVE NOT depicted the story acurately and have not told the gospel.
But furthermore, even getting the cross right is meaningless unless the resurrection is explained. No resurrection, no gospel. Read Paul’s definition of the gospel in 1 Cor 15:3-4. The atoning death of Christ AND his resurrection is our hope. Our hope is not that our life is going to get a little better and be more happy while we’re living in this evil and fallen world (though that may in fact happen). That type of presentation of Christianity is part of the reason you have guys like “Jeff” saying that religion is just a crutch for weak minds and is essentially the same thing for everyone (by the way, Jeff, listen to Neal. The very fact that you are even using laws of logic to reason out your arguments “proves” that there is a God to whom you are accountable. It is the impossibilty of the contrary. You should also read Romans chapters one and two and read Paul’s description of you.). You could become a Christain and your life might get worse! That’s how it was for most Christians in the first century and still the case for many today around the world. The hope of the Christian is that one day all evil, sin and death will be completely put away forever as all of God’s people live on a resurrected earth in resurrected bodies like their Lord’s. Christ, the Last Adam, will then take the place that the first Adam would have taken had he remained obedient in the garden, and lead the new humanity in righteousness, perfection and joy as they dwell with God for all the glory of the ages to come. This is historic Christianty.
So while “Passion” sounds quite interesting (I too am a student of dead languages), it sounds like it is going to tell a tiny portion of the glorious story of redemptive history that will, in the final analysis, be very misleading and essentially present a story of Christ that makes him quite equal to every other “moral” teacher of antiquity.
Deus Pro Nobis,
Mike
Hello to all who read:
This movie is going to make an amazing impact on all who watch…just as it does to all who read the account in the Bible! Many will come to know freedom that they have been searching for just by viewing the film. This movie will be criticized in every dimention of all spiritual realms BECAUSE of the truth that it exposes; however, it will fan the passion of the followers of Christ and will be a call to all who are thirsty! This movie is destined to break chains and bring deliverance to all who are daring enough to watch.
why should religous groups be upset witht he movie?
Surely Jews and Muslims know the importance of respecting the religous persuasion of everyone, and that Christians have a right to affirm their faith in such a way as this.
We gentiles are all happy to take our kids off to the movies to watch pro Judaism films like Moses Prince of Egypt or something to do with Joseph,so I’m trusting that Jews (and Muslims) will be as equally tolerant of Christians and go see it with respect and openess
I think this is going to be a great movie….I think that the people should see what REALLY happened. If you feel that it would be too harsh for some viewers, well I believe that people NEED to see and question themselves and their friends about where we are going wrong in todays culture. There use to be a time when we respected our elders, and having the need to be a respected person in society. I’m 27 and my belief in Jesus, family, love & peace…are the thing that mean the most..(FOR JEFF…I think you just want some attention!)
TO MIKE – I think it’s safe to assume most folks already know about the life of Our Lord. I don’t think the same could be said about his passion which is often ignored (often due to political correctness).
To know Christ is to know his sacrifice. He came into this world to willingly offer himself as a sacrifice for our sins – the perfect lamb being led to the slaughter. His entire life was a sacrifice – with the pinacle being the cross.
Too often today it is the passion of the cross that is ignored. We skip Christ’s passion and go right to his resurrection. We neglect – avoid – and riducule those who focus on his agony.
To reiterate – without Christ’s suffering and dying on the cross – there is NO redemption. Scripture would not have been fulfilled.
His greatest defeat was his greates triumph.
The First Coming of Christ and his physical life ,death and resurrection were symbolic of his more important Second Coming whence he would open the seven seals on the Bible, identify the “Beast who was and is not” as the Antichrist and fulfill the role of judge who will separate the evil from the just. The Apocalypse is not the end of the world but merely the end of the New Testament epoch and the beginning of the Third and final epoch of the unwritten Last Testament of the millennium of Peace.(After the judgement)
The First Coming of Christ and his physical life ,death and resurrection were symbolic of his more important Second Coming whence he would open the seven seals on the Bible, identify the “Beast who was and is not” as the Antichrist and fulfill the role of judge who will separate the evil from the just. The Apocalypse is not the end of the world but merely the end of the New Testament epoch and the beginning of the Third and final epoch of the unwritten Last Testament of the millennium of Peace.(After the judgement)
TO MAX – I think you are missing my point. Showing the death of Christ is *meaningless* if you do not convey what is meaningful about that death, namely, His atonement for sins. Otherwise it is just a death of a person 2,000 years ago. What gives the death of Christ significance (indeed the most glorious significance) is that He was a perfectly righteous man suffering the WRATH of God for all those who believe.
Caleb’s statements are biblically accurate. Like many, I am anticipating the Mel’s movie, but I don’t want people to miss what is crucial about the life and death of Christ. We will definitely see how Jesus was crucified, but will everyone grasp exactly why He died? Will people realize that he is different from any other mere “prophet” or moral “teacher” because he rose again the third day? I am not sure. We must understand that Jesus came to save what was lost. He was not just one of the millions of martyrs that died in agony. Jesus sweated blood when pondering what having His Fathers’ wrath poured upon Him would be like. He had been with His Father for an eternity and had to be punished by Him while being sinless. Jesus did not fear man or what man could do (as He stated in the Sermon on the Mount when he says to fear God who can cast your body into Hell and not man), but He feared God’s wrath. This was a wrath He had never felt. This is why He cried out “My God, my God, why have you forsaken ME,” and not God why are these men hurting Me.”
As for Jeff: Anybody can pretend and make up ideas about whatever they want. I can believe I am Peter Pan and mother goose laid an egg that grew into what we now call earth. However, proverbs says, “There is a way that is right to a man, and in the end it leads to destruction.” No matter what we think, there is a right and wrong way. 2 plus 2 is always and only 4. Jesus says that He is the way the truth and the life, and NOBDY comes to the Father but by Him. This Jesus probably does “take notes” when we pray because he intercedes with the Father on our behalf. He never said that we are gods(that’s blasphemy) but said that there is only one God. I am a strong believer in cause and effect
I hope and pray that this movie will do more harm then good. He is a REALITY MODEL because he more evidence has been collected over the truth of His life death and resurrection then the fact that Abraham Lincoln existed.
May God bless everyone and this movie.
Well, no offense to anyone, but everyone knows Hollywood is over ran by Jews. And a lot of critics don’t want this movie made. I think its a great idea. They should tell more stories from the Bible, there are so many great ones. I think that there being no subtitles is a good idea. It comes straight from the actual Bible. The movie itself will tell the story, and most of us who know the story will indeed understand it.
TO JOHN: You say that Jesus never said we were Gods. Didn’t he say ‘You are like Gods’? Or was that St. Paul? I thought it was said – and it is a reference to us being in the family of Christ. If we are to be brothers of Christ – logic indicates we must be ‘like Gods’. If we are sons of God, then we must be ‘like Gods’. Jesus referred to us as ‘heirs’, once again – referencing this ‘family unit’ concept – bringing us to a supernatural level.
Help me out if I’m wrong here.
QUESTION TO ALL: Anyone know of a web-site that gives regular updates on the progress of the movie?
Information to all:
The film is going to be based in the experiences of Anne Katerina Emmerich, a german extraordinary mystic of the 18th century who described landscapes and details of Jerusalem in the 18th century which only could be discovered and checked in the 20th century. His book “Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ” is absolutely impressive. She suffered during all her life the Estigmas and Sores of Our Lord.
And the film is also based in the scripts of the spanish mystic Maria Jesús de Ágreda, a woman who made spiritual voyages to America from his convent in Spain to evangelize indians.
Both works are not considered in the Catholich Churc as confirmed experiences, but have much prestige into catholich world.
Thy Kingdom Come!
This movie will re-awaken in our hearts, minds, and souls the intense and real sufferring that Christ endured for us out of His incredible and real love for us – a love that is so much more wonderful than any of us deserve, and too far-reaching and deep for any of us to fully comprehend. Christ is God, and He humbled Himself to the point of allowing himself to be spit upon, laughed at, stripped naked, crowned not with gold but with thorns, and ALL BY THE FREE MEN THAT HE CREATED out of a loving plan which calls us from nothingness to an eternal home of unspeakable wonder and beauty. He could have blown the Romans to bits with a snap of His finger, but His humility and His meekness, His power and his love, His goodness, His attraction, His humanity and His Divinity, and his boundless mercy redeemed us by his passion. Christ will speak to our hearts, reminding us of these things, thanks to the courage of Mel Gibson. More of us need to allow this picture of Christ to imprint itself deeply into out hearts – so that we, as Mel, will be moved to action. Christ is our King – Fight for His Kingdom!!!! Be not afraid.
In Christ,
Mike Gannon
Thank you Mel! For making a movie about the Crucifixion as it should be done, with reverence, love and respect! and in Latin, too! WOW!
Your fellow Traditional Catholic,
Kerry Ramirez
Society of St. Pius X Chapel
Dickinson, Texas
http://www.sspx.org/
I am so excited about Mel Gibson’s “Passion” I will be one of the first at the theater when it is released. I was so priveliged to be able to go to Oberammago Germany to see The Passion Play, (in german by the way) & one does not need to know the language to know what is being told. It will be wonderful. Thank you Mel & God Bless Pax
Reading this post for the last 20 min is exactly why we need this movie to be made, and why we need to be reminded of Jesus Christ!! the majority of these postings are not about the movie, but about a guy named Jeff, who happens to believe something different than the majority of us believe. I am a christian, who remembers the words ” Thou Shall not Judge, Love your enemies, and pray for them” Instead I am reading posts about burning in the eternal flames of hell?? I think we should use this website to be positive PLEASE!!! I also hope, they do at least have a movie version with WORDS.Truth not only lies in the actions of Christ, but in his words as well, and I think it should be accessible to everyone in English.We have to remember that there will be people going to see this film who don’t believe, who don’t know anything about Jesus, or are going to make fun….Jesus spoke truth with such simplicity….the WORDS need to be understood….without comprehension of what he is saying, people who don’t know the TRUTH, will leave the theatre with only half of it!
To everyone who has posted a comment,
I have enjoyed reading each and every entry that has been posted, ESPECIALLY the exchange between Neal and Jeff. This movie hasn’t even been produced but yet it has led one non-believer to this website. God is so good!
Matt, the TRUTH is very difficult for some to accept. We need more people like Neal to be able to defend what we believe and not be ashamed or made to back down with scientific terminology from someone like Jeff. I have found that people who seem to have all the answers are the most lost. BUT I do know that God still loves Jeff with all his heart even though Jeff refuses to see the truth. I challenge every Christian who has made a comment here to pray for Jeff for the next 30 days – longer if you’re led to do so. It’s the best thing that could ever come from anything that has been said. Heavenly Father, thank you for your story without it none of this would matter. To God be the glory!
In HIS grip,
Christina
Christina, I understand what you are saying, but….telling someone there are going to end up in HELL is WRONG…( Jess) That is not what Jesus is calling us to do….I am an actor/musician, who has been pretty sucsessfull in a ” secular ” world as a christian….I have seen more people moved by ” Christ like actions” more than anything else..I TOTALLY BELIEVE, FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART, THAT CHALLENGING JEFF IS ONLY PUSHING HIM AWAY…WHAT DO WE NEED TO DEFEND??? I GUARANTEE IF WE ALL HAD JUST…. ” OK JEFF, JESUS LOVES YOU, AND SO DO I” How can he possibly ARGUE THAT!! The point is , is that he can’t…you can’t fight LOVE!! If someone comes at you , and they are negeative, be POSITIVE …when Jesus said ” he who lives by the sword, shall die by it, I believe that can be applied to anything….the only way to defeat hate is with LOVE…we NEED MORE PEOPLE WALKING AWAY AND PRAYING FOR THAT PERSON, MORE THAN WE NEED SOMEONE DEFENDING CHRIST WITH JUDGEMENT…..I HAVE TO TELL YOU, and it’s all in the book of Matthew..No christian, should be telling somebody they are going to hell…
I TRY EVERYDAY TO LOVE…it’s not easy….I apologize, if it seems as if I am coming down on anyone..it is a true blessing that we are all even talking about this!!
God Bless Everyone!
Thank you for your comments Matt, but the truth IS that anyone who has heard and does not believe WILL enter eternal damnation. Now do I think this is how we should approach non-believers – of course not! But should we sugar coat the truth to make it more comfortable for the secular world so as not to scare people off – of course not! The truth is SCARY! I do believe that God calls us to love the unlovable and I too try to live my life this way, so on that point we can agree. I also agree that actions speak volumes to believers and non-believers. All I am asking is that you join me in praying for Jeff. (BTW, no need to apologize).
Dear Heavenly Father, thank you for loving me unconditionally. While still sinners, you died for me and you died for Jeff. My prayer is that he would come to know Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior before he leaves this world. I thank you for making a way through your Son. I love You and to You be all the glory and honor. For it is in Jesus Christ’s name I pray, Amen.
I am very enthusiastic about this movie, even without subtitles, for it may make us more acutely aware of the individuals thoughts and feelings than we may initially believe. Filmic sttorytelling is entirely possible. In response to the question of the languages, Greek was use during the early church era mostly because of the geographic regions where growth was happening. However, for the movie it would not be appropiate. Aramaic was the language of the people and Latin would have been used during the trial and other institutional manifestations of the Roman government. Greek wasn’t used in this area by many. Also, the point about the true meaning of the Gospel is a good one, how the true pain and sacrifice of His death isn’t necessarily in the physical, in a medium such as a movie it is proper and even right. This is a chance to explore a part of that sacrifice that often isn’t looked upon. The pain that the scene invoked upon those who knew and loved Him while he was still here. The most important lesson I’ve learned in the past year is that while all my intellectualization of my faith may have a place, I had forgotten the emotional impact of what God has done in my life. My emotions are real and shouldn’t be forgotten. And to a secular audience, that is something they can realte to, not a theological thesis on the truth behind the crucifiction. That pain isn’t anything we can ever know. What we can see is the physical, and that is what the world hopefully will respond to.
Ei, I say Mel Gibson is a genius! I think it’s nice he thought of making such a film, I mean, I’ve been looking forward for such a long time for a new JESUS film to appear. I hope that Mel portrays Jesus’ life well and no SCREW ups PLEASE! I hope this movie ain’t a perversion of CHRIST’s unvainly way of living.
Actually, I also have the same, ahem, “PASSION”, that Mel has in doing this.
GOD BLESS YOU ALL!
yours truly,
Mayo.
This could be a revolutionary concept in film-making, and then some for Jesus Christ’s Glory! The strongest and most effective form of active artistic communication is presently film and television, therefore, this could really touch many hearts for Jesus, and probably hit some nerves too (not that this is a bad thing), some ‘nerves’ need to be hit. The concept of doing this film without subtitles I believe is absolute genius. Even though it is risky, Gibson could have a genuine chance at communicating the reality of what Jesus Christ did that goes beyond the constraints of language. I believe that the languages Gibson actually intends to use are actually dead languages, so everyone (except perhaps a few very talented experts in Ancient Language!) will have to watch this movie as it is. On a film-makers point of view he is also very clever – because, he is attempting something that is unheard of – think about it: a great script idea (about a somewhat touchy subject with many) that is in a language that noone can speak, and made by someone with such a high profile as Gibson – a film left to the visual devices of pure cinema, to depict the most incredible of historic incidents. Even if people hate the idea, or feel uncomfortable, most are going to go see it, because its NEVER BEEN DONE, and its being done by Mel Gibson. If Gibson pulls this off, he could have in his hands one of the greatest conceptual cinema successes. I don’t know about you, but I am excited.
Jeff:
You know, how sad the way you think—- You just don’t know how much Jesus LOVES YOU! Quantum whatever man, you’re killing your soul! Blessed are those who have childlike faith instead of those who are “wise” which the world claims.
Jeff, you’re an intelligent species who scampers freely in this universe—- USE IT WISELY.
GOD BLESS YOU, and MORE POWER TO GIBSON!!!!! JESUS RULEZ!!!!!!
Well, Im really excited about this Jesus film Gibson is making. Guys, please pray for Jeff—- we love him isn’t it? Let’s pray He gets to know Jesus sooner or later before something bad happens to him. Jeff, Jesus ain’t Just like a Krishna, or a Buddha or any Maharishi that you can brush away—- HE’S THE ULTIMATE STUFF— Why not try Him? God doesn’t need you RATIONALISM— I’ve been a prick like you man— ALMOST AN ATHEIST WHO QUESTIONED THE EXISTENCE OF GOD. But you know what, ther’ll come a time that you’ll be tired of that “fix” that you are having doubting and being cynical—- and just kneel down, and surrender your life to Jesus.
Jeff, I do not know you—- but I’ll be counting on God’s miracle to work on you.
Mel Gibson, you’re a genius! Make it as bloody as Jesus could be so that a lot will realize the love Jesus had given to humanity. I hope you read this Mel, e mail me! at iam_mayo@yahoo.com. We need one of these things so badly nowadays!
And all to the Jeffs in the world—- WATCH THIS FILM oke?
Long live the PHILIPPINES!!!!!
Well, Im really excited about this Jesus film Gibson is making. Guys, please pray for Jeff—- we love him isn’t it? Let’s pray He gets to know Jesus sooner or later before something bad happens to him. Jeff, Jesus ain’t Just like a Krishna, or a Buddha or any Maharishi that you can brush away—- HE’S THE ULTIMATE STUFF— Why not try Him? God doesn’t need you RATIONALISM— I’ve been a prick like you man— ALMOST AN ATHEIST WHO QUESTIONED THE EXISTENCE OF GOD. But you know what, ther’ll come a time that you’ll be tired of that “fix” that you are having doubting and being cynical—- and just kneel down, and surrender your life to Jesus.
Jeff, I do not know you—- but I’ll be counting on God’s miracle to work on you.
Mel Gibson, you’re a genius! Make it as bloody as Jesus could be so that a lot will realize the love Jesus had given to humanity. I hope you read this Mel, e mail me! at iam_mayo@yahoo.com. We need one of these things so badly nowadays!
And all to the Jeffs in the world—- WATCH THIS FILM oke?
Long live the PHILIPPINES!!!!!
Well, Im really excited about this Jesus film Gibson is making. Guys, please pray for Jeff—- we love him isn’t it? Let’s pray He gets to know Jesus sooner or later before something bad happens to him. Jeff, Jesus ain’t Just like a Krishna, or a Buddha or any Maharishi that you can brush away—- HE’S THE ULTIMATE STUFF— Why not try Him? God doesn’t need you RATIONALISM— I’ve been a prick like you man— ALMOST AN ATHEIST WHO QUESTIONED THE EXISTENCE OF GOD. But you know what, ther’ll come a time that you’ll be tired of that “fix” that you are having doubting and being cynical—- and just kneel down, and surrender your life to Jesus.
Jeff, I do not know you—- but I’ll be counting on God’s miracle to work on you.
Mel Gibson, you’re a genius! Make it as bloody as Jesus could be so that a lot will realize the love Jesus had given to humanity. I hope you read this Mel, e mail me! at iam_mayo@yahoo.com. We need one of these things so badly nowadays!
And all to the Jeffs in the world—- WATCH THIS FILM oke?
Long live the PHILIPPINES!!!!!
I can’t wait to see this film. Personally, I am thrilled that someone as talented and passionate as Gibson is doing this. Also, I think that the idea of having no subtitles is a great idea: most of us, whether we actually believe them or not, know the words and this story by heart. Personally, except for a few phrases spoken in thbe film Tombstone, I have never heard Latin or Aramaic and can’t wait to hear Jesus’ words as they may actually have sounded. Also, I hope that this treatment of the Crucidfiction goes far, far, far beyond any other treatment of it to show the nastyness and brutality that Christ sufferred willingly for. Thanks Mel, Gob Bless.
It is so encouraging to see fellow Christians showing such unanimous support for this movie!! I have a feeling I will be on my knees in the theater crying my eyes out when I see it. But it’s something that everyone, both Christians and non-Christians, should see. Hopefully it will stir up such an appreciation for the sacrifice that Jesus Christ made for us, just so that we could all be forgiven of our sins! God will bless Mel Gibson for being so bold as to create a movie depicting this…I wish I could be involved in the creation of it!! I suppose we can all be involved though…through prayer and support!
I also think that it’s ridiculous that reporters are trying to dig up whatever they can so as to somehow call Mel Gibson a hypocrite. Please. That’s crazy…
God bless you all!
In Christ,
Amanda
Mel Gibson is one of the few directors in Hollywood with some guts. It takes a lot to stand up to certain elements that have no problem dishing out movies that seek to ridicule Christ, ie. “Last Temptation of Christ”, “Dogma” but are horrified at the thought of some one depicting the Truth. I think the American public will support this film because a large majority is sick of being fed the same formulaic garbage year after year.
FOR ALL THOSE VICTIMS OF POOR AMERICAN PUBLIC SCHOOL EDUCATION STANDARDS:
Aramaic is not a dead language, you can thank ignorant cultural anthropologists and biased historians for that mistake. Aramaic is the root language and alphabet of all semitic tounges: Hebrew, Arabic and Persian. Aramaic is still spoken today in different dialects by Assyrians and Chaldeans in northern Iraq and parts of Syria and Lebanon. Its derivite called Syriac is spoken by over 5 million Assyrians and Chaldeans worldwide, including myself. The Assyrians are the only Christian minority in Iraq and have “kept the faith” and survived centuries of persecution by Muslim invaders and dictators, including the current one. The Maronite Orthodox Church,the Syrian Orthodox Church, Apostolic Church of the East and the Assyrian Orthodox Church celebrate the divine liturgy every Sunday in Aramaic.
God bless Mel Gibson for his dedication and sacrifices in making this movie. I hope its success will send a message to Hollywood that Christ should be respected and not ridiculed.
Maybe all those opposed to Mel’s film should do a movie about Muhammad’s life?
Maranatha!
-Ninos
Ninos:
Your info about current Aramaic dialects is very true, your effort to lift the confusion is appreciated. The language Mel Gibson intends to use in the film is Aramaic in its most ancient entity, which is quite different to the present day dialects. Aramaic is still alive today due to these dialects, but the ancient form is culturally unspoken, and therefore is a dead language. Sources reveal this to be the language Gibson intends to use, due to his quest for absolute authenticity.
God Bless Mel Gibson, and for that matter, all of Hollywood in it’s entirety!! The Name of Jesus Christ needs to ring in Hollywood, and I pray blessings upon it and everyone therein. I pray this not because of any deeds, but because Hollywood is in an arid place – dry bones that need flesh and life are scattered there. May their hearts be touched and restored by the Grace of God and the Blood of Jesus Christ!! Amen.
Like some others, I found this site while looking for information on Mel Gibson’s “Passion” movie. I, too, am looking forward to seeing the finished product and hope that Mr. Gibson and his cast and crew allow God’s Holy Spirit to guide and direct their efforts. In the meantime, I highly recommend that you view “Matthew” from Visual Bible, Inc. This is a set of four VCR tapes (may be on DVD also by now) dramatizing the Gospel according to Matthew. Except for a brief introduction, the entire script of the movie is the Gospel according to Matthew in the words of the New International Version – no words added or deleted. Its depiction of Jesus as a man of joy and passion (a REAL man) and as the risen Savior is rare, if not unparallelled, in filmdom. It’s a treat and an inspiration. It was directed and produced by committed Christians. The man who portrays Jesus is a Christian whose life has been tranformed and redirected as a result of his experience. You can find this movie through several web sites, as well as in many Christian book stores. Happy viewing as we await Mr. Gibson’s “Passion.”
Koine was the language spoken in the eastern provinces of the Roman Empire in the time of Christ, not Latin. It’s unfortunate that Mr. Gibson is using Latin rather than Greek, since Greek is still a living language and Koine is not that far distant the Modern Greek
For those of you who are looking for more information on Mel Gibson’s “Passion” there is a very detailed article at http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/853851/posts. I believe you can also find the same article on the Catholic Exchange website. The article was written by Holly McClure.
As many of you, I applaud Mel Gibson and am looking forward to the relase of this moving. I believe this movie has the power to change a lot of people.
The more I read the articles and posts about this movie, the more I can’t wait for it to come out. I pray that someone in Hollywood will be smart enough to pick up this movie for distribution. Regarding one of the earlier posts, I believe this movie will actually extend beyond the crucifixion through the Resurrection, so there is no need to worry about the “true message” not being conveyed. I could be wrong about this, but that was the latest that I had read.
It’s nice to see so many people anxiously waiting for a movie such as this one. I guess there is still some hope in this world that the secular media hasn’t brainwashed all of mankind. If Mel Gibson holds true to his beliefs and values, this could be one of the greatest movies of all time.
To Jeff and all non-believers, my prayers are always with you. All I can say is that eternity is a long time (heck, a day seems like a long time at my job), and I’d definitely want to make sure I had all the facts about my beliefs or non-beliefs before dying. Worst-case scenario: you spent a few hours a week of your life learning about different faiths, and when you die, you can rest assured you had all the facts. Best-case scenario: you learn about the faiths, realize you’ve made a huge mistake, and spend an eternity in total bliss worshipping and glorifying the magnificance of the One Who created us. Just a thought.
To Mel, God bless you and your efforts in taking such a chance in creating this “controversial” movie. I’m sure one day I’ll be showing this movie to my children illustrating what sacrifice Our Lord made for us those 2000 years ago. Thanks also to you and Jim Caviezel for holding true to your faiths (coming from someone who also loves the Tridentine Mass) even in a secularized Hollywood that denounces faith and morality.
Pax Christe,
Tom
I commend the man, which is my favorite actor. I have studied God’s word for over twenty years would have liked to gave him some insight own what i have found
Well,… I *was* real excited and happy about this undertaking of Mel’s until I got on the internet to search out the information on ‘The Passion’. First of all, it isn’t based on the Holy Bible (thus my biggest disappointment), but rather, it is based on a *Catholic* “saint” (the Holy Bible calls ALL believers/followers of Jesus saints, … while Catholics only call those *they* ‘venerate’ (establish and vote on by their means, usually after thier death) … the “Catholic Saint Anne Catherine Emmerich”; it is *her* book that the movie is based on.
Site: http://www.emmerich1.com/DOLOROUS_PASSION_OF_OUR_LORD_JESUS_CHRIST.htm
My second disappointment is that people actually think Jesus and his disciples went around speaking in *Latin*? Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew, yes — but not Latin! The original ‘Dead Sea Scrolls’ were transferred *into* Latin BY THE CATHOLICS to keep the ‘ordinary man’ from being able to read them/understand them, for pete’s sake! That’s part of what caused ‘The King James’ Version’ to be done, as well as the ‘Protestant Reformation’, people! Scripture wasn’t meant for only the so-called holy people to know — it was for everyone, … so that *everyone* could understand sin (and it’s problems and end result) versus the way God meant for us to live.
The Bible began as a *Jewish* story, of course, as the Old Testament only, prophesying that one day a Messiah would come. When Jesus finally came, of course he *came* to the Jewish (Hebrew) people first. Most of the Hebrews (who spoke Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic — *not* Latin — look up ‘Dead Sea Scroll’ information, for heaven’s sake!) rejected Jesus as the Messiah (in Greek, ‘Yeshua’ is ‘Jesus’, and ‘Messiah’ is ‘Christ’ — hence ‘Jesus Christ’).
Even up until Jesus’ crucifiction, he spoke to very few non-Jews at all (for example, the Samaritan woman at the well, and the Canaanite woman.) Example Insert Below:
Matthew 15
22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession.”
23Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
24He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
25The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
26He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs.”
27″Yes, Lord,” she said, “but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.”
28Then Jesus answered, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
It wasn’t until the Apostle Paul — after Jesus’ death — was sent by God to ‘the Gentiles’ (all non-Jews) — that the rest of the world got as much attention as the Hebrews. Peter was also told by God in a vision that a ‘non-Jew’ was ‘clean’ and should be listened to/included — a man by the name of Cornelius. These people, these disciples, these new converts, … they did not go around speaking in Latin! Look it up yourselves. They were Jews living in places where Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew were the languages of the day.
The oldest manuscripts of the New Testament are in Greek. But in the time of Jesus, the Roman Empire had not become divided into two halves. The center of the Empire was still Rome. The Roman and Greek languages are very difficult. If Roman influence had at all penetrated Jewish life, it should have resulted in the assimilation of Latin (and not Greek) words into the Hebrew language. Yet the oldest manuscripts of the Gospels are all in Greek. This proves that the Gospels were written down at a time when the Roman Empire had become divided and its eastern possession had become part of the Greek Empire, so that the Greek language had begun to exert its influence on Christianity and its literature.
I’m sorry to be so *passionate* about my disappointments of ‘The Passion’, … I certainly don’t mean to come across as angry. I’m not angry, … but disappointed and frustrated — yes. I cannot understand how people get so confused and don’t even take the time to get thier knowledge straight before taking off on such a major and important project and/or singing it’s accolades.
Anyway,… I’m *still* glad Mel is making the movie! Jesus said, ‘whoever is not against us is with us’, and I know this has plenty of Biblical *references* in it, even if it isn’t pure Scripture. I plan on seeing it. I hope someone gets some subtitles in at some point! hehe
God Bless,
A Christian (Christlike) person following the Messiah, Jesus (or as the Jews say, ‘Yeshua’).
While I applaud Gibson for his insight, I am troubled by the number of anti-semites visiting this page. You will also be judged.
I’m definitely not anti-semitic. Jesus *was* a Jew (in the human sense). ‘Christians’ actually are following the Jewish God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob — whether they understand that or not — and they also follow the Jewis Messiah, which is and was Jesus — whether the Jews understand that or not. The most complete ‘Christians’ are the ‘Messianic Jews’ who follow Jesus.
P.S. (For those who, like the awful Hitler, actually believe the Jews are in any way responsible for the death of Jesus — it’s in no way true! Jesus *was* a Jew, his diciples were *all* Jewish, and Jesus said, “No one takes my life from me, I lay it down.” “This must happen so that Scripture will be fulfilled,” and many other things so that we would understand that it was God’s plan for the redemption of sin for all mankind. First for the Jews and then for the non-jews.)
I think it is interesting that the Jewish Powers in Hollywood are so offended that this film will create possible anti-semitism. It was the Jews, under Herod the First and Second, and so on who first murdered every baby in the Holy Land to try and kill Jesus at birth. I feel for all those babies and their families who died under this evil Jewish King. And it was the Jews who begged Pilate, the Roman Governor of Judea, to crucify Jesus Christ, his murder was finally won by the Jewish powers in the Romam Empire. These are facts. Now people like Rabbi Marvin Hier want the blame of the Jews against Jesus Christ taken out of the history books and beckon Mel Gibson to erase the evil that the Jews once placed on Jesus Christ. They continue to hate Jesus today in so many ways. The appearances of the Virgin Mary in Cairo, seen by millions in the 1968-1970 period only made the back pages of the NY Times. This is a miracle to prove her resurrection with Christ that deserves to be in all national headlines. When she appeared in Assiut, Egypth in 2000, 2 the BBC reported that 2 million people flooded this small town to see her in her body of light. The story never made headlines in America’s Zionist controlled media because the Jews hate Jesus Christ. They don’t want anyone to know that these miracles are happening today. Go to http://www.zeitun.org to find out.
I think Mel Gibson is a hero to Christians and his father also. Do not back down against threats from Zionist Jews who perpetrate the hate of Jesus Christ.
David Sereda, a witness who has seen “Jesus Christ” 3 times in the 1990s. See “Face to Face with Jesus Christ” on http://www.amazon.com
I think that this movie will help express the true meaning of the Catholic religion. This will show how Our Lord suffered. If I could I would like to be a part of it. As a Traditional Catholic, I think it is about time that we had a movie like this out to the public.
Typical. Mel Gibson and his anti-semite Dad want to erase the Holocaust and Vatican II in the interest of some sort of so-called “truth.” They speak the voice of hate in the name of Jesus, which is a sein in itself. I wonder if Mel will follow up his version of Jesus with a film about the bloody (and sinful)Christian Crusades? I didn’t think so. Mel’s not a Christian–he’s a hate-filled religious zealot.
David –
I beg of you to be mindful of what you are saying. You say, “I think it is interesting that the Jewish Powers in Hollywood are so offended that this film will create possible anti-semitism.” Do you think Jews are offended or frightened? Have you ever experienced any form of hate such as anti-semitism? If you were beaten and your family murdered because you wore red would you not be frightened of wearing red again? Also, Jews don’t hate Jesus. You are generalizing and labeling a group of people. I think every religion in this world would encourage you to look at people as individuals and not stereotype people en mass. People are frightened of anything that breeds hate – plain and simple.
This is truly a welcome development, to see a Catholic Australian giving Americans a lesson in patriotism and to the christians at large (“Judeo-Christians” that is), a lesson in true christianity.
About a week before the movie opens, we’ll see a world wide campaign of DEFAMATION against Mr. Gibson, accusing him of being “anti-semitic”, for simply stating the fact that the Jews tortured and assasinated our saviour. The callous premeditated and cold way they killed Jesus is just their style. Today they commit genocide against the Palestinians, but no one says a thing. But the peoples of the world are beginning to open their eyes…and some day there will be just retribution for these people’s crimes against humanity such as the devastation of Germany and the present dismantling of the Northamerican civilization.
JEFF,
you said PROVE that Christ ressurected??
You can prove physical science and thought particles or what EVER your talking about, or so you say you can, and if you say so… i believe you,
but what about Truth?
I know truth exisits… you know truth exists,
How can you prove that???
there must be a way to prove it, if it exists.. or must one just rely on Faith that it exists??
e-mail or post the answers… ANYONE.
thanks,
jonathan
Oh yeh also
anti-semetitic or what evere
thats a load of horse shit
i have seen more damn movies about the Jews in concentration camps and the Nazis then I have taken shits while i have been alive,
and Im German… So don tI have just as much right to be pissed off and offended these movies are being made and that my people look retarted??
yeh, but tough luck thats histroy, you cant change it and the truth is alwas out there.. tell that to that Rabbi and all the other Jews in hollywood!
j
( sorry had to vent )
Oh yeh also
anti-semetitic or what evere
thats a load of horse shit
i have seen more damn movies about the Jews in concentration camps and the Nazis then I have taken shits while i have been alive,
and Im German… So don tI have just as much right to be pissed off and offended these movies are being made and that my people look retarted??
yeh, but tough luck thats histroy, you cant change it and the truth is alwas out there.. tell that to that Rabbi and all the other Jews in hollywood!
j
( sorry had to vent )
I was looking for info about Mel’s new movie and I came across this site. I just wanted to say: God bless You Mel!
We all know what’s going on in the world, what’s happening to our families and basic human values. It’s time to look back and think about the TRUTH.
HOLLYWOOD=DOLLAR
TINA,
I don’t think Mel will have Our Lord speak in Latin – I think the Roman Officials will be using that language. And, if you check your history – I think official Roman business was conducted in Latin at the time of our Lord.
By the way – you don’t like Catholics much, do you?
After reading numerous things from numerous people, it is simply amazes me how much confusion there is regarding Christianity. It boggles my mind even more to see how much confusion there is with Catholicism, as well.
I am not an expert, nor will I claim otherwise. I do not have any teaching authority. I can, will, and do admit my own ignorance (socratic ignorance) in the hope of finding something other than reaffirming my own pre-conceived and antiquated ideas. Such is the dribble in this forum that it is being tossed about AS IF such ideas were new ones. Mind you, I’m not talking to ALL people who wrote something in here; I’m talking to a few.
For Heaven’s sake, people. Click on the following links:
A Few Books by Peter Kreeft:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2UIBMXUTYX&isbn=0830817743&itm=8
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2UIBMXUTYX&isbn=0898707986&itm=9
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2UIBMXUTYX&isbn=0830823166&itm=11
One I just read by Paul Thigpin:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2UIBMXUTYX&isbn=0965922820&itm=1
The Catechism:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2UIBMXUTYX&isbn=0385479670&itm=1
Bible Commentary:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2UIBMXUTYX&isbn=0814624545&itm=6
Bible:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2UIBMXUTYX&isbn=0385142641&itm=2
Firstly I’d like to congratulate Mel for having eyes that can see!
Do you know that there are places in this world who see Jesus and Christians as evil and that whoever believes in Jesus must be killed, and think they are doing God a favour. And also this was predicted by Jesus.
How can the killing of good be a favour to God. It must mean that that God is the God of evil (the Devil himself).
Also right will always prevail, and darkness can not stand the light, Light gives life.
I think that this movie will show what goodness is all about and change alot of minds.
In these times we will see more and more people stand up for the name of JESUS!!. It is that one WORD, that one NAME that makes Christianity different from other religions! Don’t be afraid to give your hart & life to Him. You will receive an unexplainable love,peace in your live.
May the Lord bless the film and the crew and may the Holy Spirit guide every one in every scene!
Marana ta! Marana ta!
PANGE, lingua, gloriosi
proelium certaminis,
et super Crucis trophaeo
dic triumphum nobilem,
qualiter Redemptor orbis
immolatus vicerit.
De parentis protoplasti
fraude Factor condolens,
quando pomi noxalis
morte morsu corruit,
ipse lignum tunc notavit,
damna ligni ut solveret. . .
CRUX fidelis,
inter omnes
arbor una nobilis;
nulla talem silva profert,
flore, fronde, germine.
Dulce lignum, dulci clavo,
dulce pondus sustinens!
SING, my tongue,
the Savior’s glory;
tell His triumph far and wide;
tell aloud the famous story
of His body crucified;
how upon the cross a victim,
vanquishing in death, He died.
Eating of the tree forbidden,
man had sunk in Satan’s snare,
when our pitying Creator did
this second tree prepare;
destined, many ages later,
that first evil to repair. . .
FAITHFUL Cross!
above all other,
one and only noble Tree!
None in foliage, none in blossom,
none in fruit thy peers may be;
sweetest wood and sweetest iron!
Sweetest Weight is hung on thee!
This should be great!
All — helpful site: http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible
Jack: Hello,
I’ve just been gone a few weeks to stay by my mom’s side during her stay in the hospital after a mild heart attack. I’ve studied all religions back when I was an atheist, and then I studied all Christian denominations again after the Lord changed my mind and heart. Thank God! I don’t put denominational robes on God, but I have a respect for all parts of those Christian churches who follow the Bible, including Catholics. For those who make up their own Bibles (i.e. rewriting what they don’t like) or for those who add their books to the Bible, I don’t have as much respect. Catholics know about the Reformation, the Protestants, and so on … I’m sure they also know that if they have Jewish/Greek commoners walking around speaking in Latin, then the Mel movie has some flaws.
To the Anti-Semites: Please think your arguments through. I repeat, JESUS WAS A JEW! THE APOSTLES WERE ALL JEWS but Luke! Yes, some Jews caused Jesus’ death. Yes, some Romans caused Jesus’ death. Yes, some other nationalities caused Jesus’ death. That’s NOT the point! The point is that we’re ALL guilty of killing Jesus, because we ALL have sinned, and we ALL need to have Jesus in our lives to be forgiven for that sin. Jesus message is most certainly NOT one against the Jewish race, for heaven’s sake! Many did follow Jesus then, and more and more follow Jesus today.
I’m glad Mel made the movie! I’m excited about seeing it! I hope it’s more full of truth than flaws, and I hope it gets subtitles. :))
Hi Tina,
Thanks for the clarification – hope your Mom’s OK.
You made a comment ‘For those who make up their own Bibles (i.e. rewriting what they don’t like) or for those who add their books to the Bible, I don’t have as much respect…’ Who owns the copyright law for the Bible? There were many more Gospels written than were published in the Bible – who determined that only the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were specifically inspired by the Holy Ghost?
I couldn’t agree with you more about the fact that we’ve ALL crucified our Lord (Mel’s said the same in a few interviews as the media attempts to attach the ‘anti-semite’ label on him. In fact, I continue to add to Our Lord’s suffering (then) by the sins I continue to commit (now)! God is good in his mercy.
I think the point, though, that our Lord was a Jew that was rejected by his own – ‘he came into his own, and his own received him not’ can’t be lost. It doesn’t make one an anti-semite by discussing historical fact. Especially if we can admit that everytime we sin – we all reject Him by choosing oneself over him.
As an American Jew, I’ll explain why Jews MAY be upset by this film. I say MAY because it all depends on how Mel portrays the scenes. There is no doubt his parents are anti-semitic based on their comments denying the holocaust, but there is not a lot to indicate Mel himself is anti-semitic…..yet. If it is true that he does not accept the “Vatican II,” then it means he still holds the Jews responsible for Jesus’ death. The problem I have with Mel can be seen in his response to Bill O’Reilly. When asked if Jews might be upset by the film, he says, “It may. It’s not meant to.
I think it’s meant to just tell the truth. I want to be as truthful as possible. But, when you look at the reasons behind why
Christ came, why he was crucified, he died for all mankind and he suffered for all mankind, so that, really, anybody who
transgresses has to look at their own part or look at their own culpability.”
Now, it’s the culpability part that Jews have a problem with. We view history in the following light: Jesus was being portrayed as the Son of G-d. The Rabbis of the time did not agree, partly because not everything that the 1st Testament stated would occur with the coming of the Messiah had occurred. Therefore, they viewed his words and claims as blasphemy of a sort. Religion to people back then WAS life. It meant everything. Something like this would have been taken VERY seriously. So in sum, Do I think the Jews of the time who did not accept Jesus contributed to his getting arrested and prosecuted? YES. Do I think the Jews of the time are in any way responsible for his crusifiction? NO. The Romans Crucified him, the Romans nailed him to the cross. The anti-Jesus reaction of some Jews back then was a perfectly reasonable response from a group of people who perceive someone as being blasphemous. Was it right to advocate that someone be harmed? NO. Is it understandable why they did that given the time in history, the way of life, and the seriousness with which they treated religion? YES. But, Jews today do not accept CULPABILITY for Jesus’ crucifiction. Maybe an anology would be a mob of people outside a fraternity house on a college campus. The mob eggs on a boy to beat another boy. They yell and cheer as punches are thrown. They may even yell, “Kill Him!,” but if boy 1 kills boy 2, the people in that mob crowd who were cheering on the fight are not charged with murder. The boy who killed the other boy is the one our justice system blames. Bad analogy though because there was no good reason for the crowd to cheer on the fight, whereas, from their perspective, it was quite reasonable for some Jews to view Jesus as being blasphemous.
Now, today, in this country at least, we have reached a miracle… we have Jews, Christians, Muslims, and others all living in the same country and being friends…having our children play together, live together, we are AMERICANS! We respect each others’ right to worship in our own ways. The Jewish Community is worried this film may portray Jews as heavily to blame. They worry because Mel is a member of “Traditionalists” who reject the “Vatican II”… hope this helps some of you understand another perspective.
Craig Greenberg
When I first saw that this movie was going to be made, I was really happy because I’m taking Latin right now and I could brush up on it. Having said that, I am now not too sure if I want to see this in theaters, assuming it will be wide released. After reading most of these comments, I realized that a lot of people excited about this are very very Christian. As a teenage American Jew, I would feel really out of place. Plus I got really turned off by the comments about the lord and the savior and all that.
After reading even more statements, one of them made by a person who was very anti-semitic, I’m not so sure about people now. I’m going to see the movie, but it won’t prove anything to me. I won’t suddenly realize I should praise anyone, I won’t think “oh no, look what my ancestors did”, and some of you, adults who have lived longer and some who may have lived through the Holocaust, you are forcing your religion onto others. I have no hate to Jesus; he was a peaceful man. The early followers were pretty much okay too. But once people believed in the miracles that may or may not have happened, they hated the people they had come from. Jesus isn’t the problem, the Middle Ages were.
See the movie but not against the maker of the film or anything. Religion is a choice and that’s all everyone needs to remember.
Oh yeah. I’m not angry at Mel Gibson or his parents. I’m just amazed. Don’t take your hate out on a beautiful movie that can teach all of us something because you don’t like theirs opinions.
And I thought STAR WARS fans were bad!
Another lost occasion.
Mr. Mel Gibson to seek to carry out a “serious” movie on last 12 hours of Jesus, but it bases your movie on a “novel” of Anne Catherine Emmerich that is not in fact a historian.
The Gospels were written in Greek, not in Latin neither in Aramaic, in the dialogues the Greek should only have been used.
I have seen some pictures, Jesus loads with the cross ‘whole’!, Mr. Gibson has not been documented on practices of the
crucifixion.
Blood, a lot of blood, Mr. Gibson relaxes in the use of the flagrum.
This movie doesn’t reflect Jesus’ passion, it is only “The Passion according Mel Gibson”
I would like to applaud Mr. Gibson for having the guts to direct and show something besides the crap that is consistantly spewn out of hollywood at the american public. In my opinion the people that this film angers are the ones whom are afraid it may make people think about God and Jesus and perhaps they may have to admitt that they have been wrong about their secular beliefs. God bless you Mel and I for one cannot wait to see the film, I will be bringing plenty of kleenex also.
I cannot believe that this anti-semitic film is being made. It’s an embarrasment. After many years the pope denied these accusations written by a man who was never there.
-BK
I think that this movie will be great!! Mel Gibson does a great job in illustrating his viewpoints. Hopefully it turns out to be very accurate and it will give believers and non believers more of a vision of what really happened. May God be with you Mel..Thanks!!
To Jeff,
I don’t know if your even going to read this. But the fact that you are even in this chat and reading these posts shows that you feel convicted and much shame for being a sinner..for turning your back on your creator. Jeff life is short..And you will never understand this place without the Bible which is the word of god. Seek and you shall find. I will pray for you..Don’t let your circumstance steer you from truth.
In christ
Reuben
Who Says that we have turned our back on our creator just because we are reading this? You were here and were reading this also. Freak.
This movie will be great, no matter what language it is in. There should be more stories about this so that people can learn more about the real stories that come from the Bible. They dont call it “The Good Book” for nothing!
This movie will be great, no matter what language it is in. There should be more stories about this so that people can learn more about the real stories that come from the Bible. They dont call it “The Good Book” for nothing!
How limited is your view of God? We were made in the image of God, yet it seems we make God in the image of us. Free your hearts and minds, as JC did. Stop fighting, start sharing. **We are all one!** Know/Feel this and you will know you are already saved!
A lot of comments about a movie.
However, no matter what your view – anit-emitic, too gruesome, self-serving for another rich Hollywood actor/directo …
Bottom line: Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic, or Lord – exactly who he says he was by several accounts. Anyone who concedes that he was a peaceful man, a good man, a prophet, or anything short of who he himself said he was, is deluding himself. These descriptions do not agree with a person who was quoted as being the Son of Man, one who says “I and the Father are one”, “no man comes to the Father but by me” and countless other claims. So believe he is a liar, or a lunatic, or Lord. Make a choice. But don’t tell people you think he was just a good man or a great prophet – like Mohammed, or any of the other “religious” leaders so many have chosen to believe in.
Mel Gibson’s “The Passion” sounds like a wonderful film. I don’t think the subtitles will be needed. The dialog will be from the Bible and the story is well-known. It has been done in English and other languages before as well. I’m looking forward to this film.
I sincerely hope that the film will not merely end with the death of Jesus, but that it will also show us something of His resurrection. If Mel Gibson is true to his faith and to the idea of reality, he will have to show the stone rolled away and the Son of God risen from the grave.
Talk about a dramatic finish!
Golly! There are so many different points of view in here! A person could drown (lol). Like a great many of you in here I was looking for info on Mel Gibson’s movie when I was directed to this site. I find the conversations stimulating and some a bit worrying. I am a recent Catholic convert and reccomend to anyone wishing to know EXACTLY what we believe that you take RCIA classes.
Also, though we may banter, discuss heatedly and even fight in here about what is right, prayer is the only thing I have found that is TRULY able to change things. So if you have problems with what someone says, fall down on your knees and tell God about it. And you may discover, as did CS Lewis, that prayer doesn’t change God-it changes you.
Please remember that prayer is not our personal “gimme” list either. God recognizes prayers from our hearts; the Bible says they “rise up before the throne as a sweet savor before the Lord.”
So whatever your point of view I encourage you to pray. Stop and raise your heart and mind to God–you won’t have wasted your time, even if it feels like it at the time.
My one hope for this movie is the same one I have seen expressed here many times-that it will be the truth we see up there on the screen, not Hollywood’s spin on it.
God bless all here, and bless Mr. Gibson.
Amy
This is going to be an awesome movie. Someone said earlier that the movie should be done in Greek since the New Testiment was written in that…. that may be true, but Jesus spoke Hebrew and Aramaic, and maybe Latin too, not too sure…but that was the laguage in that area due to the Romans. Plus he is portraying a great Catholic view of the sanctity of life in this, so he prob. wants to keep the vibe alive. I am proud that my fav. actor is doing this. He has a chance of losing his fame since mopst famous people who openly admit they are Christian tend to lose fame. I am glad he acts brave in movies, and is brave in real life.
Mel Gibson, in having made this film, has taken the biggest gamble of his career. The choice to
use the ancient languages is quite impressive.
By published accounts, painstaking care was used
in recreating the physical realism of the period.
No subtitles?!!? Wow. Even Stanley Kubrick, had he done *Spartacus* in Latin, would have certainly had subtitles. Gibson isn’t going for
glitz and glam, however. He’s aiming for the soul. Let’s hope he hits the bull’s eye!
Wordsmith 🙂
Does anyone know if the movie is going to end after the crucifixion, or is it also going to include the resurrection?
Praise God and thank you so very much Mel Gibson for making a movie about the real sacrifice that Jesus willinging gave. DO NOT let the anti-God liberals stop you. I believe your movie about Jesus will change many lives and I cannot wait for it to come out. Thank you again and God Bless.
from the research i have done so far on the structure of the ‘the passion’, mel uses periodic flashbacks to show events of his early teachings, events, etc..
I also read that the movie does not end with the crucifiction but has scenes of the resurrection as well….(i think the one pic showing him from the chest up and the robe…one of the last pics in the sequences you people have probably seen already, is a shot of him after he was raised from the dead))
The Lord is with Mel, no doubt about it. The sucess of this movie will be its fidelity. The idea of shotting this movie in Latin and Aramaic is part of the fidelity. LAUDATE DOMINUM OMNES GENTES, LAUDATE EUM OMNES POPULI
The Lord is with Mel, no doubt about it. The success of this movie will be its fidelity. The idea of shotting this movie in Latin and Aramaic is part of that fidelity. LAUDATE DOMINUM OMNES GENTES, LAUDATE EUM OMNES POPULI
The Lord is with Mel, no doubt about it. The success of this movie will be its fidelity. The idea of shotting this movie in Latin and Aramaic is part of that fidelity. LAUDATE DOMINUM OMNES GENTES, LAUDATE EUM OMNES POPULI
I can’t wait to see the film. It sounds and looks like a great depiction of Christ’s life and a great accomplishments to show Protestants they are missing so much in the dialouge I’m hoping is in the film. Please lets there be Englsh subtitles, it would attract so many more people.
Come on people, this movie is going to suck so bad. Movies based on the life of Christ simply don’t work. “The Robe,” “The Last Temptation of Christ” have all tried to capture the pain and sacrifice that Jesus supposedly endured, but have failed immensely. The subject of Jesus just doesn’t make for good storytelling, and frankly I find it boring. You already know the story, but even the story itself is shaky because no one really knows anything about Jesus’ life. And I laughed when I read the post about Jesus rising from the dead as fact because 500 people witnessed it. You mean to tell me that you are going to believe something that people said happened almost two thousand years ago, when people were so blind and miserable that they would believe I was God if I told them I was? Come on, don’t be stupid. They were a people that were longing for something to believe in, and probably seeing a guy wake up from a nap is their way of saying he is the son of God. Give me a break.
Movies about Jesus are inheritantly flawed. His life is based on the bible, the most unreliable document on this earth. There is nothing that we know about Jesus that is fact, nothing. And for those people who are going to suggest that I read the bible first, I’ll save you the trouble. I have read it cover to cover as I did my Masters thesis on the flaws of religion, blind devotion to religion and the futility of a flawed belief system. The bible is not factual, not a word written in it is in Jesus’ hand. All the gospels got their information from recollection, feelings and impressions. I don’t know about the rest of you, but I don’t trust recollections and feelings at all. Tons of the bible is made up, it’s a fact. Studies have been done that suggest the gospels were so insensed with writing something so important that they fudged their memories of Jesus. This is the foundation of an entire belief system, that spawned a church that is responsible for countless atrocities in this world. The invention of religion is the worst thing to happen to this world, it has led to the death of millions. Why? Over a damn belief. Jesus may have had good intentions, but the murders of millions have been carried out in his name, by the very people he was meant to save. I’m not saying that is his fault, but movies that are made about him keep fueling this fire.
And no subtitles? You have to be kidding me. I’m laughing my ass off. Is Mel that stupid? Visual storytelling is something directors do when they have no story to tell, so I guess it shouldn’t surprise me. And I laughed when I read that post about reading the bible if you want subtitles. You guys crack me up.
Now don’t get me wrong people, I’m sure this movie will be well shot with great scenery and all that stuff, but these movies just aren’t very good. This movie has already been said to be anti-semetic, which is never a good thing. The movie probably isn’t anti-semetic, but it will no doubt spark controversy and more hatred towards Jews and other ethnic groups, something religion is very good at.
All in all, this is just another crap movie, with Mel trying to convert those un-believers to the dark side with the only medium he knows, movies. I for one am not falling for it.
Jackal, proud Atheist
Interesting Jackal…I’m with you about nobody knowing what happened to Jesus…I’m not Christian or any other religion…I wonder about how the world works and all that, I wouldn’t call myself an athiest, I don’t think labelling is necessary…truth is, I don’t know who created the world or where this whole thing comes from…I think that’s the problem, most of the planet has been looking up so long they’ve forgotten to look around…and we are certainly in a horrifying state aren’t we? I saw a trailer for “The Passion”, and am interested solely in the human element, truth of what happened to Jesus as a man, but coming from a traditionalist Catholic, there may be no truth in it and since like you say, nobody knows what happened, how can he tell the truth. The “truth” is that we all see, hear and feel whatever we wan’t to…I remember seeing the animated film “Prince of Egypt” and was sickened by some of the things in the story, most notably the babies being dumped over a cliff…and in a movie marketed to children…my little neice was promptly removed from the couch! but Jewish people and Christians may have seen it as completely acceptable and correct thing to show children. We make our own conclusions about everything we encounter and believe what we choose to believe…so Mr Gibson probably puts his on perceptions and interpretations into this movie…and without any concrete history, it would be impossible to avoid doing that.
Christians, Jews, Muslims are an interesting group of people and most are a bit of a conundrum…
And why are Jewish people so worried about some Jews being portrayed as hostile toward Jesus? Some may have been, some may not have been just as those who were not Jewish would have been…Christians have done some horrifying things but associating the acts of a small group of people, even a large group with an entire religious or social group or race is bloody ridiculous! You couldn’t even entertain the idea… every person on this planet is ancestrally and/or genetically linked with somebody who has either committed or been involved in an inhumane act.
Those of Jewish Faith need to be very careful that they don’t start believing that they are a part of a group of people in which nobody has ever done anything wrong. Jewish people have done things wrong and that may have been in connection with Christ but the actions of those Jews are not in anyway attributable to all Jews.
Jews need to be careful that don’t start thinking of ALL people who practice their faith as being perfect…human beings are flawed and that has never been more evident than in the time of Jesus Christ…regardless of whether he was the son of God or not, he was a human being that many people contributed to killing, a victim of the ignorant times and circumstance and of his fellow human beings.
I wonder what protests will be planned when the film is released.
God’s Time is coming. Your anti-Christs and undecided will have no choice but to “bow their knees and Praise their God. With what little time remains, I pray for their souls and their quick awakening.
Nice Wayne…some of the Christians here aren’t very Christ-like, I mean really, can you imagine Jesus, this supposedly eternally forgiving and loving man, telling me to bow to my knees or that I will burn in the fires of Hell if I don’t believe…my 5 year old neice has no inkling of who Jesus or God is, though it’s likely she will..but if she was brought up away from any mention of Jesus Christ or God and grew to an adult she would still have no idea of God, does that mean she is going to burn in Hell?
And what do you mean God’s time is coming? Don’t you find it odd, that in the present day, when people are more aware of science and the way things work, that there have been no signs from God, excluding the ramblings of misguided but hopeful Catholics? Besides why would this so-called God need to show us signs? Mr Gibson says there has been miracles on the set, garbage, what an ego, can you imagine, what person would believe that he is more worthy of a miracle than the cancer riden 2 year old in the hospital down the road…major egotists, these miracle believers are.
I am a good person, I have never hurt anybody or anything (veggie) why would God choose to turn me away? What many Christians are failing to recognise is that telling people of other religions or non-believers that if they don’t accept Christ that they will be burn in eternal damnation is only alienating people and in a big way. Most of the people on the planet aren’t Christian, how are we all going to fit into Hell…hope they’ve cleaned up down there ’cause we are going to need some serious space! I would ask you, though you claim to be Christian, have you lived a Christ-like life…if you are being so cold to me…I put it to you that you have not. Much has been done in the name of Christ that is less than Christian….
Let’s be serious folks, it’s what we do while we’re here that matters, how true we are, how kind, how compassionate and if there is a God, that is bound to make him happy.
Just a follow up to the whole belief thing…imagine you are on an airplane thousands of feet above the earth…you sky dive out, you are enjoying the jump but your parachute fails, then your reserve chute fails, you are travelling at break neck speeds towards the ground…but you aren’t looking at the ground, you are busy desperately trying to fix the parachute…just when you thought you had run out of time, you land…not on the hard ground though, your friends had caught you with one of those big blow up balloony things…you breath a smile of relief…you hadn’t believed it possible, you hadn’t known it or even considered it possible that it could happen…but it did just the same. Your friends loved you and wanted to spare you from pain and suffering and though you never believed it could happen, it didn’t matter it still caught you…you don’t have to believe something is there in order for it to rescue you….not the best analogy I’ll admit, but do you see where I am going with this?
Though Mr Gibsons intentions may be good, there are no perfect men, only perfect intentions, I wonder if he has really thought about the consequences, it’s something that people in Hollywood have to be aware of and weigh up when thay make any movie…and since this will be light on facts about this time in history, is it really appropriate?…but controversial movies have been made since the film business began and I don’t think it will stop with this one…
Some interesting comments about antiSemtism here.
Some are by outright bigots, who declare the “zionist” media or the Jewish “controlled” Hollywood. Some believe that Jewish concerns about antiSemitism somehow demonstrate some underlying superiority attitude that they are “perfect” in some way. Others just don’t understand the issue.
For the bigots, there is nothing to say. They have embraced their bigotry.
For those who simply don’t understand — the issue arises from the fact that Passion depictions have historically caused serious torture and murder of innocent Jews and Gibsons’ refusal to answer some pretty simple and straightforward questions.
Gibson has been asked why the script relies upon a “vision” of a horrific antiSemite nun from the middle ages? Her “visions” include those “proving” that Jews murder Christian babies to use in secret Jew rituals. How ironic that these very same “visions” were used in fact as a reason to actually murder Jewish babies at the hands of Christians. Her vision in the script is used to depict the Jews as money hungry blood thirsty people who actually built the cross itself and did so in the very Temple. Why rely on this bigot for the “truth”?
Why refuse to show the film to Jewish organizations who are asking this and other questions?
What is the fear? Why include bigotry?
Hmmmm…I see your point Jerry…if this is going to in anyway distort the story to make all people of one faith seem like you said, “money hungry blood thirsty people”, then it definately shouldn’t be on the screen…religious fanatics are always going to distort stories, books, movies etc etc and throughout history those distortions have contributed to the horrific murder and torture of countless living beings. And if this “film” is going to contribute to that then it shouldn’t be going ahead especially if it has already occured! I guess people still cannot learn from history.
As to the whole “Jewish “controlled” Hollywood” thing…how ridiculous…I thought that was totally odd when I read that…absurd…I don’t even know who’s Jewish and who’s not. How can those who are not involved in the industry know what religion people practice? I am from Australia, where who is Christian and who is Jewish is really of little significance…people believe in who they want to and practice whatfaith they want to, it really is nobody else’s business…I don’t agree with organised religion, but who one chooses to have faith in is an individual thing. Really though, how can one tell who is Jewish and who isn’t in Hollywood? I guess this film kinda rules Mel Gibson out (sorry, joke)
I did not mean that Jewish people think they are perfect, I meant they need to be careful not to become that way…and don’t think that can’t happen to religious people, it can and has.
Hey, judaism has my vote, Jews don’t believe in Hell right?…That is the one thing that bothers me about religious faiths…the idea of Hell is probably the one thing that we who are “non-believers” have trouble with…if you sin, you go to Hell…one mistake and not asking for forgiveness and your off to burn in the firey depths…what happened to a forgiving God?
You now, just reading this pages demonstrates to me at least that this film is only going to hurt people in the end…maybe it’s not a good thing…and who is this crazy bloody Nun talking about Jews murdering Christian babies, are we supposed to take the word of a Nun who was probably missing a few brain cells and a book of recollections? Hmmm…I don’t think so.
Hey Jerry,
I think I read the same thing about a nun who had visions, but that was from a Washington Times article that quotes Paul Lauer, director of marketing for the film, that the stuff in the movie is not based on her visions. This is the address for the article if you would like to read it. http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20030706-114908-2252r.htm
It was written by Julia Duin. It’s about a month old. Mind you, it’s just a sentence from him. It also mentions that the film has been shown to Jewish people. It’s an interesting article, although it leans a bit to the ‘right’. Read it and feel free to comment. It’s the only article I’ve read so far while trying to get some info on this thing. I only heard about the movie this weekend (I guess I have been living under a rock).
Anyway,I wasn’t going to see this movie, but I realize that I cannot knock it’s validity until I’ve seen it. I’m just going to take Gibson’s word for it.
I applaud Mr Gibson for his courage and conviction in making this movie. The coming of the
Messiah is widely prophesied in the Old Testament with over 300 separate predictions and
prophecies all literally fulfilled in the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus. Isaiah 53
and Psalm 22 in particular relation to the crucifixion. The reason for the Passion was God
laid upon Him the iniquities of us all and without the shedding of blood, there is no remission
of sins (Lev 17:11, Heb 9:22). He was born to die as was seen from His birth in the burial caves
at Bethlehem wrapped in swaddling cloths normally used for those who have died.
I hope this movie will capture the extent of the horror and mutilation that the Messiah had to
suffer as previous movies have not captured the true depiction of the Passion as clearly stated
in the Bible. At no point in time is Love so wondrously portrayed as the Cross an
act which was necessary because God sees the true nature of all sins, big and small.
Some will be skeptical, some will be offended, others with have their faith strengthened.
For those who are considering absence due to the nature of the movie, I say go. He gave
his Life for you, that at least is worth the cost of a movie ticket.
Hello,
I am one of the many who really wants this film out soon.
From a TV show called “The World Over” on EWTN, Mr. Gibson’s comments during the interview were quite insightful. He and the star Jim Caviezel are devout Catholics and are hoping (as should we all) that people get “converted” by watching this film.
Although I am not a Catholic (my preference is Baptist), I believe that anyone with that much desire in their hearts for people to be saved really can’t go wrong. I have seen the trailer and I must say, even it was totally moving.
If anyone out there gets a magazine called “New Man” there was an article about the movie in it.
Blessings to all the stars and production crew for such PASSION!
In Christ,
Peter J. Maerkel
Danielson, CT
I was and still am excited to see Mel’s movie The Passion but I was taken back when I heard he wanted in the language of the time then I heard there will be no subtitles??? What in the hell is this man thinking I know he wants a true to life film but how many people speak that language very little compared to english how many people will sit through a movie where they have no idea what the “characters” are saying “VERY LITTLE” he want to send out a message throught this film and to do so you have to reach the masses not alienate them I hope the movie does well and I do not wish any bad luck on it but I wish he would have taken into consideration the fans who are not “cultured” in the art of languages because we are the ones that will suffer if that is the case let us hope the dvd will have subtitles if it does and the movies good I will add it to my collection.
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[6] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.[7] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”[8]
We are all Jewish some of us just don’t know it yet.
Jesus as the King of the Jews or the holy spirit
or the Son of Hashem is the biggest hoax ever told to man. If you want some good info read the
Passover Plot. G-d gave the Laws and the Land of
Israel to the Jews. Some people can’t handle that
fact. Every where in the world the Jews have been
tortured. There has not been more than 80 years of peace for the Jews yet they continue to thrive. That’s because we are THE CHOSEN. Hashem looks out for us. Mel is just an actor trying to be some one he is not. Mel, start eating kosher
and you might have a chance. We are all G-ds children but he has a special place in his heart
for the JEWS.
THe Lord or G-d THe Lord is One not 3
i think this is a great oppurtunity for people to understand more about the life of Jesus Christ and what He actually did on this earth! i definitely cannot wait for this movie to come out, but i would much prefer to have subtitles, so i would at least understand what they were saying!!
congratulations, http://www.thepassionmovie.tk website is launched with over 70
pics, wallpapers, movie info, clips, interviews, and many more
spread the word out to everyone you know about the site, and hope to see
all active in the forum
thank you,
Would love to see it , but what’s the sense . I only understand English .
PLEASE READ!!!!!
Um, hi?
Let me just say that I’m very intimidated by every single one of these comments concerning Mel Gibson’s Jesus movie. I’m an 18 year old guy (birthday is 8/7/85) and my knowledge of the Bible is pretty sad and pathetic. Let me just say that I’m very scared of the future.
I’m going to tell you a story so get ready: I was born on the before mentioned day and raised in the city of Detroit for eleven years. When I was five my younger brother died in an accident that I blaimed myself for (please don’t ask what the accident was, it’s irrelevant). My dad, even before my brothers death, was very abusive to my mom and me both physically and verbally. I was baptized in a Reformed Christian church, went to a Lutheran preschool, a Catholic grade school, and a Baptist church while in Detroit, so it’s not like I don’t know. I now live in a small village of 303 people called Friesland, Wisconsin. I live on my grandfather’s farm that was built in the late 19th century and has since had a couple of modernization which make it inhabitable (definition: I’m now tiping on my own computer at home). My dad has since left (the final time, he left a lot back in Detroit), had an affair with another woman, divorced my mom (who now works three jobs to support herself and five kids), and now has a girlfriend who I’ve never met. I haven’t seen him in three months, I haven’t spoken with him in three months. The divorce happened about five years ago so in the most desperate time of my growing and maturing life (adolescence) I’ve been without my earthly dad because he’s too earthly. He just recently expressed an interest in completely severing ties with us. He likes to play mind games a lot and he’s very intelligent. He’s a Ph.D. psychologist. For all of you psychologists out there that will read this I want to make it clear I’m not prejudice of you because of my dad. Anyway, he plays mind games with us a lot. This really, really tears me apart because I know that he can be a good dad because I’ve seen him be a good dad before. He and I both like movies. We talk about all sorts of movies we’re interested in, how the acting was, etc. I’m very interested in performing arts which is why I checked out this site.
Anyway, that’s my story. Now, reading all these comments really intimidates me because you all sound like you know your stuff and right now I’m really confused and scared. I’ve already shown tendencies that reflect my dad: short temper, depression, arrogance, swearing, and some others I can’t think of right now. I’ve also already slipped into the porn thing. That happened when he left before the divorce.
I suppose what I want to do here is speak my mind a bit but I want people to understand me so that’s why I gave you all the whole song and dance. I’ve had some ideas I’ve been wanting to spill for some time now and this seemed to be the site to do it on.
I’m going to talk about the movie real quick so that those of you not interested in my babble can hear my opinion on the movie. I believe the greatest thing that people can be in this world is honest. Honesty breaks all confusion and misunderstanding and whatnot. I’ve been honest and I’m going to be honest. I truly believe in what Mel Gibson is trying to do. I don’t think he’s doing this to upset the Jews or anyone. Mel wants to tell a story and this is the story he wants to tell. The story that each of us hears is determined by us. We decide what this movie will say to us. The wonderful thing, though, is that true Christians (definition: see the Apostle’s Creed) can hear the same story together. I believe what the Creed says and many Christians believe it so it is possible for other Christians and myself to believe that what Mel Gibson’s movie is about is Jesus’s death on the cross in a very vivid and graphic way. I think what many need to understand, however, is that what the Bible says is the truth. If this Catholic saint that everyone is talking about actually had a vision and wrote a book about it or whatever he/she did from God then so be it. That’s irrelevant. The last word is God’s Word and is this saint’s (and please understant I say this with the utmost respect without an iota of sarcasm or mockery, I just can’t remember the person’s name) word goes along with God’s Word than it has to be true. Supernatural happens!! Another thing we need to understand is that maybe Mel Gibson isn’t doing this to impress people, or to get attention, or to upset the Jews and Catholics, or anything like that. I believe he’s doing this for God. He wants to tell this story because God entrusted him with the gift of movie making and Mel is undergoing a temporary assignment (the movie) within a temporary assignment (his life) and is being tested by the other forces that be. Mel is doing this for God. It’s all about God. It’s all about glorifying God. How do we do that? By passing the tests in our temporary assignment and using our gifts. God gave Mel the gift of storytelling and movie making so that Mel could glorify God. He gave Mother Theresa the gift of mission work so that she could glorify Him. And if people think that Mel is trying to blame the Jews for crucifying Jesus then here’s a reality check: WE ALL CRUCIFIED JESUS. Why did Jesus die? To save us from our sins. Do we still sin? YES, YES, and YES! Jesus died for us so we wouldn’t have to “die.” However, we might as well be crucifying Jesus everyday because we sin everyday. That’s sad, but we aren’t perfect. That’s why we’re Christians. That’s why I’m Christian. I sin all the time. I’ve sinned numerous times today. Why? Because I’m human. I think one of the misconceptions that non-believers have is that Christians need to be perfect, Christians can’t sin. Though that would be nice, it’s not entirely true. Humanity does not become of Christianity. Christianity becomes of humanity. We aren’t human because we’re Christians. We’re CHRISTIANS because we’re HUMAN. If we weren’t human we’d have no need to be Christians because humans are naturally sinful. Anything else that God created isn’t sinful: plants, animals, water, day, night. All these things don’t have our free will. Therefore, because of our free will and the presence of Satan in the world we are bound to sin. Christianity is the life preserver. We will sin, there is no doubt about that, but what we chose to do after we sin is what makes us truly Christian. Christianity is just as much reaction as it is action. We need to react in a Christian way just as much as we need to act in a Christian way.
I’ve kind of lost my train of thought now (which happens often) but I just wanted to say that. I love Christ immeasurably, but I sin so much and all I want people to do is understand or at least accept this. I can see myself in Mel Gibson’s shoes. The only difference between us two is that I would falter and back away and fail the test. That scares me a lot. Please pray for me because I’m scared and confused and all I want to do is serve God, but my humanity gets in the way. Here’s my email: kdfleck@yahoo.com
Please contact me if you’d like. I love each of you as fellow humans that are sinful and encourage, not challenge, but encourage all of you to grow as much as you can in Christ and enjoy every minute of it because He will have things for us to do in heaven with him. That’s AWESOME!!
God bless you, keep you, and give you peace.
Kailen Donal Fleck
P.S.: I’d like to recommend the book Purpose-Driven Life by Rick Warren and the CD Third Day: Offerings II.
Sorry, I just saw that I wrote a lot.
KDF
Do you want to know why this movie is bringing up all this contraversy, and everyone is talking about it? Do you want to know why you all just spent 15 minutes or more out of your busy daily lives typing in your comments about this movie? BECAUSE IT IS THE TRUTH! There is no other movie, I GARENTEE IT that will get this much attention. Jesus Christ is GOD, it doesnt matter if the Jews are affended, the buttists are affending or any other denomonation, because the fact is..whether you agree or not, CHRIST IS THE REAL THING FOLKS. and I’m so excited about this movie. Praise Jesus!
Thanks for listening!
K >
For the guys that mercilessly INSULTED CATHOLICS either because of them having no faith, Like JACKAL THE PROUD ATHEIST! i would like to say you REALLY SUCK! PLEASE I BEG OF ALL OF YOU PEOPLE WHO LOOK DOWN ON PEOPLE WHO PRACTICE RELIGION, STOP MAKING FUN OF THEM, PLEASE RESPECT THEIR BELIEF.
I AM A CATHOLIC, A FILIPINO ATHOLIC TO BE EXACT WHO STUDIES IN A SCHOOL RUN BY MEMBERS OF THE PRELATURE OF OPUS DEI. OF COURSE WE ARE ALL EXCITED FOR THE MOVIE. FOR THOSE WHO ARE NEGATIVELY CRITICISING THE FILM, PLEASE KEEP IN MIND THAT IT IS NOTHING MORE THAN A MOVIE, JUST A MOVIE. MEL GIBSON ISN’T TRYING TO PUSH HIS FAITH ON THE PEOPLE WHO WILL WATCH IT.MOVIES ARE MADE FOR ONE REASON ALONE, TO ENTERTAIN PEOPLE! THOSE WHO USE MOVIES AS A MEDIUM FOR PROMOTING THINGS LIKE RELIGION ETC. ARE STUPID! MOVIES ENTERTAIN, NOT PROMOTE.
ok, i like to breathe normally again. sorry that i lost my temper with you guys but please, i don’t care whether you are a catholic, a protestant, a muslim, a jew, a born again, i don’t care. i have a classmate who is a born again christaian and we don’t insult him for his religion. i fact, he gets along fine with all of us (our class of 30 are all catholics)! so let us be united. let us all love one another. and for Jackal the Proud Atheist, i shall pray for your conversion, or enlightenment.
MABUHAY AN PILIPINAS! (LONG LIVE THE PHILIPPINES!)
I’m encouraged that the saints of God have lifted up their voices to comment positively on this movie. I, too, believe that the versions we’ve seen have been “watered down” so to speak. The truth is as it is and we need to see specifically what Jesus went thru! The depictions we see of the crucifixion are not as accurate. With all that happened (nails in his hands, feets, thorns on his head), there was much more damage to his body. The “flowing” of the blood (not trickling) is symbolic! I hope and pray that those who stand against this movie will attempt to view it, even if they go with the attitude that it will not be any good, maybe they will “slip up” and give their life over to Christ!
Hi,
Great website!! I wanted to ask if you knew how to contact Mel? I read an article about his upcoming movie, “The Passion”, about Christ, and it stated that he wanted to use the original languages, and it only listed Aramaic and Latin. The language that was dominant during that time was “koine” (which means “common”) Greek. This dialect was spoken throughout the Roman Empire during Christ life, and was different from the classical Greek. It was the language spoken by the common people, and was also the original language of the New Testament, with only very small parts written in Aramaic, and no parts were written in Latin.
Also, I read where the Jewish community were upset because they thought it would portray Jews as evil. It would be nice if these people knew that only 50 days after Christ’s crucifixtion, that the very same Jews who were screaming for the Messiah to be crucified, were obeying the
Gospel, and were being baptized into his body and His church!! (See Acts 2; Romans 16: 16; Galatians 3: 27) They were being born of the water and the Spirit spoken of by Christ in John 3, because He Loves Them!!
I would like to pass this on to him, but do not know how to contact him. Could you help?
Sincerely,
Keith
cte73350@centurytel.net
THIS SITE HAS EVERYTHING GUYZ
IT IS AAWWWWSOME
ANYTHING FOR THE PASSION
http://www.ThePassionMovie.tk
I came upon this site to find out more about Mel’s movie, and I found some people that just had a lot of hate. I agree with Matt, this site shouldn’t be so hostle but more loving. All that you care about who is write and who is wrong and who can prove his point.But thouse that want to follow Christ lets take his example and be more like him. Its so sad to see Christians trying to condem when Christ teaches something else. He says reveng is his not ours.
God bless and good luck,
Meri
Dear
I am a website owner supporting mel gibson’s upcoming film THE
PASSION, i made this site as a NON PROFIT site, i made it to support
the film’s distribution, release, and to support the freedom of
artistic expression. I would love if you can support the site by
placing a link in your site to help bring fans together, make THE
PASSION an important cinematic film in our history, and make people
more aware and learn more regarding the film
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE we need your support, we came for help to you
knowing that we are hopeful, that you will place a link for us .
Please support the site by mentioning it and link to us. This would
be a very great honor for us, I swear we are not making any kind of
money out of this site or benefiting in anyway, but only as a
student filmmaker to support the vision of an artist
please , we need to raise the awarness for the film, and help make
the film and important one, and support it. Please mention our site
in your show and/or place a link in your site. We thank you a lot in
advance for your generous time to read the email…and plz consider
our forum to be your own site forum, to help traffic for both our
site and more the better.
the site is: http://www.thepassionmovie.tk
Waiting your reply
Hello,
I’ve been following the saga of this movie for some time now. It is an intriguing project. I am concerned on several levels, though. First, the New York Times reports that Mr. Gibson belongs to a group of Catholics who roundly reject Vatican II, the Papal Bull that pardons, or exhonorates the Jews from the killing of Christ. I don’t understand how one can be Catholic and not accept the totality of Papal doctrine. My fear is that Mr. Gibson will be telling the story of Jesus’ last days from that viewpoint. This could incite a new round of anti-semitism, which flares up around Easter anyway.
The other questions I have are sort of contingent on the first one. If Mr. Gibson is indicting the Jews for the death of Christ, is that a bad thing? Is what Judas did a bad thing? According to my understanding, Jesus realized he needed to be crucified to relieve the world of the burden of original sin. Any events leading up to his crucifixion would therefore be God’s will, right?
The disturbing issue to me is that several people have posted that this is the TRUTH. First, the issue of truth is tricky. Most of the Gospels were written several hundred years after the events they describe. Even if you don’t subscribe to that particular belief, when several hundred people witness an event and reflect on the course of that event and the meanings, you will get several hundred different interpretations of that event, not necessarily in the details of the moments, but mostly in the meanings thereof. There can be no doubt that people with different life experiences will view the same things with different eyes. Just as a devout Christian will watch The Passion with a different mindset than an Atheist. Mr. Gibson has chosen for his source material some extremely anti-semitic interpretations of The Passion. That’s not to say they’re wrong or right, though personally I think they’re wrong, but to say he has definitely not combed the entire breadth of the collection of writings on this time in Jesus’ life. There is no thought towards the Gnostic Gospels nor towards the work of many accomplished and respected Christian Theologists.
Finally, I hope that the community of people who believe this movie is the TRUTH can respect that it is of an ancient time. In specific, that the Jews of today are not the Jews who may have killed Jesus.
It is simply important that not only Christ’s sufferings, but His teachings be remembered, for although as a Jew I do not believe in His divinity, I do believe very strongly in what he said and preached. Thank you for your time.
To KDFLECK:
Man,God loves you man. Don’t be scared nor frightened coz God has loved you so much man. Um, just stop sinning man, it’s not that hard. Just give it all to Jesus.
To Mel:
Mel, I can’t wait for your film man! Show it quick! I’m prayin’ for a kind distributor for yer film. How I wish you were reading this. Anyway, that’s it!
Long live the Philippines!
Mayo
Thank you for all of the info! Can’t wait to see this film. Do you know the release date, or tentative release date?
Blessings,
Annette
I’m so eager to see this flick, I can’t even bring it to words. I will say this…GO MEL!! I’ll be standing in line whenever it’s available(2-25-04), and I would love for someone to come to Chicago to try and stop me…GOOD LUCK ADL!!
hi, i think this page is awesome, id love to talk to you ive watched like 1000 movie trailers to this movie i think every person in the world should watch this movie and it may change feelings about our god and wat he is i love this page thank you id love to chat with you so u can add me on your msn messanger if you have it lol!! (ps.. im only 15 lol) cya all hottnspicy513@hotmail.com! 🙂
hi, i think this page is awesome, id love to talk to you ive watched like 1000 movie trailers to this movie i think every person in the world should watch this movie and it may change feelings about our god and wat he is i love this page thank you id love to chat with you so u can add me on your msn messanger if you have it lol!! (ps.. im only 15 lol) cya all hottnspicy513@hotmail.com! 🙂
hi, i think this page is awesome, id love to talk to you ive watched like 1000 movie trailers to this movie i think every person in the world should watch this movie and it may change feelings about our god and wat he is i love this page thank you id love to chat with you so u can add me on your msn messanger if you have it lol!! (ps.. im only 15 lol) cya all hottnspicy513@hotmail.com! 🙂
Mr. Gibson
Thank you so very much for your dedication, insight, and answering a call
to produce, direct and film “The Passion of Christ.”
I am not a person to write to a celebrity as yourself.
I am so impressed and so very excited about the up coming film.
I can hardly wait. I know it will make a tremendous impact on all the human race.
This film will reach people that don’t believe, people that do believe.
I first read of your film earlier this year and have tried to stay informed. When
I found the website, I broke into tears. I had been looking night and day for info
on this film.
Watching the small trailer moved me to such emotional tears. Every time I have watched, I always get the same results. Such a stirring in my heart. It is if a tremendous flood of Christ’s love envelopes me. Please, I apologize, I am not a writer.
These short clips have found and touched areas of my heart and soul that have not been touchable so greatly before. I have tears streaming down my face now as I am writing.
Again, this film will start a great new beginning for so many generations that
have not been aware of Jesus Christ. I can almost imagine seeing a small wave
far out in the ocean that keeps growing and growing larger and larger until it washes over the entire world. Maybe even better, that small drop that creates a ripple and never stops growing. God love you, God bless you.
I have sent information to all family and friends across the U.S, and even to Italy.
People that I don’t know have been informed and also to forward to there
family and friends to spread the word. I pledge to never stop spreading the word.
I knew there was something different about you and Icon. I felt that you had a great
calling, you and your family. I felt this after Brave Heart. The amount of passion
that is felt from your movies, including The Patriot, is beyond words.
There have been others in your seat that have won awards as you, that were called to make a difference in movie genra, they did not take that challenging commitment as you have done.
I don’t understand why so many distributors will not back this film. It only tells me that The Passion of Christ does hit a nerve and must be released.
Have we all forgotten all the films that were released in the fifties, sixties on Christ.
They were not stopped. I don’t remember this much negative talk about
The Bible, The Ten Commandments, Jesus of Nazareth. I forget the film that
Jeffery Hunter was in that he portrayed Christ. They were all magnificent. They were
in top theaters around the U.S.
The new generation has forgotten.
I am shocked at what has taken over our freedom to worship in our
schools, workplaces, government. This has put our Nation in great danger that is in much need of a rebirth. I do believe it is the signs of the times. Your film will make a strong difference to non Christians and Christians.
I remember a proverb I read once. ” A kite does not rise unless it is against the wind.”
My family and friends are keeping your family and your new film in constant
prayer.
I just want to thank you again for using your God given talents and passion to
help spread the news of what Jesus came to this world to do.
as I said earlier, I will be counting down the days until I am able to see this
incredible film.
By the way, or Dallas is part of the Bible Belt. We would really like
it if you came to this region too and do the same as you did in Southern
California at a convention that took place late summer. I guess I am just
having a hard time waiting.
God bless you and your family and thank you again for taking a great step
of faith.
I will promise to continue to support this film and spread the word.
Best Regards,
Diane
I just wish I was one of the many that have already
seen this film. I will be counting down the days until it’s release.
I believe this is absolutely wonderful that the Lord would use Mel Gibson for to bring forth this truth into the world. Does anyone know how to truly let it be known that we want this in our theatres? If you have any info please e-mail me.
obbybay_1@hotmail.com.
God Bless!
Theresa
Hi everyone,
Through faith we adhere our life’s destiny… Portray the last breath, make us people feel the pain he had.
God Bless,
Ryan
Just saw the video clip, great! Can’t wait for the film. The film will be a great evangelical tool. It will also remind us Christians why we are here, and about the message we have in our lives.
Let’s keep advancing His kingdom.
Just saw the video clip, great! Can’t wait for the film. The film will be a great evangelical tool. It will also remind us Christians why we are here, and about the message we have in our lives.
Let’s keep advancing His kingdom.
to kdfleck- You sound like a very bright young man. Your father is missing something wonderful if he is turning his back on you. I agree with you 100% that we all sin, and that is why Jesus died for us. I keep sinning, too, and it seems like its the same ones over and over again. There are two things that help me. Receiving Holy Communion and Going to Confession. By that last statement, you will know I am Catholic. By the grace of God. I thank God every day for the gifts of life and faith, and redemption. So, anyway, I just wanted you to know, you are not alone. We are all in the same boat as regards the sinning question. But thankfully, we are truly forgiven by a God who loves us more than we can possibly imagine. Again, let me say, you sound like a great kid who has his head on straight. Keep it up.
And this is for Mel. I can’t wait to see the movie, because I hear and read it is awesome. I am a bit disturbed that you are picking and choosing what to agree with as regards the Catholic faith. I am just grateful there are people like you out there. I have been a great fan for a long time. Your marriage and family life have always been an inspiration. Keep up the good work.
Theresa
to kdfleck- You sound like a very bright young man. Your father is missing something wonderful if he is turning his back on you. I agree with you 100% that we all sin, and that is why Jesus died for us. I keep sinning, too, and it seems like its the same ones over and over again. There are two things that help me. Receiving Holy Communion and Going to Confession. By that last statement, you will know I am Catholic. By the grace of God. I thank God every day for the gifts of life and faith, and redemption. So, anyway, I just wanted you to know, you are not alone. We are all in the same boat as regards the sinning question. But thankfully, we are truly forgiven by a God who loves us more than we can possibly imagine. Again, let me say, you sound like a great kid who has his head on straight. Keep it up.
And this is for Mel. I can’t wait to see the movie, because I hear and read it is awesome. I am a bit disturbed that you are picking and choosing what to agree with as regards the Catholic faith. I am just grateful there are people like you out there. I have been a great fan for a long time. Your marriage and family life have always been an inspiration. Keep up the good work.
Theresa
I would like to say that it’s about time that someone took the time, consideration, and patience to make a movie about Christ, using Aramaic. The only thing I’d like to know is whether or not any Greek will be used in the film, the reason I ponder this is because I have read that Christ most certainly would have been able to converse in Greek because Jerusalem was under the Hellenstic influence, due to Alexander the Great. Greek would have been the language to use for business and other foreign affairs. Jesus would have been able to speak Greek when he made trips there for religious feasts. Also, JOhn P. Meier in his book “A Marginal Jew,” he concludes that due to all of this support, Christ most likely would have known enough Greek to converse with Pilate at his trial.
He would have known Greek when he did business as a woodworker or “tekton” (in Greek). Please let me know! Anyway, I look forward to this film because Mel always produces excellent and memorable work whether he’s behind the screen or in front of it! Happy Holidays!
Jack A. Leone
Wantagh, NY
This movie is a mockery of THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, and I believe that those who partake in getting money from it are themselves guilty of betraying THE LORD JESUS CHRIST into the hands of sinners. They do betray THE LORD JESUS CHRIST as did Judas.
Mel Gibson is a shame and will have to face his wicked actions at The Day of Judgement. This is obviously another exhibition of man’s greed, so much so that they will even think to wickedly exalt themselves against THE NAME OF THE MOST HIGH SON OF GOD, JESUS CHRIST! And for what? For vainglory among men, for greedy, filthy lucre’s sake and for the praise of men, all of which are abominations in THE SIGHT OF GOD.
Oh, shame upon Mel Gibson. Extreme shame and sin be upon mel gibson’s head for betraying THE LORD of GLORY. For a profane actor to portray THE HOLY LORD for profane reasons is extreme wickedness.
I utterly urge all who love THE LORD JESUS CHRIST in TRUTH to discourage this film and to not advertise it or to see it.
“The Day of THE LORD Is at hand, and as a Destruction from THE ALMIGHTY shall it come.” And those who make and further this movie are guilty also of THE BODY and BLOOD OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.
“The Day of THE LORD shall come as a thief in the night, in the which the heavens shall pass away with A Great Noise, and the elements shall melt with A Fervent Heat, and the earth also, and the works that are therein, shall be burned up.”
Woe to mel gibson and the actors.
GLORY TO THE ALMIGHTY GOD and HIS MOST HOLY SON JESUS CHRIST THE LORD. “There is no other.” But this movie does not Glorify THE LORD JESUS CHRIST in TRUTH.
–jason shick
servant of THE LORD and KING JESUS CHRIST.
Hoooooooooyyyyyeeeeeaaahhhhh!!!
I personally believe that it is to soon to judge this film and the people in it. Waaaay to soon to be pronouncing woe to anyone involved. Why don’t you wait and actually see the film first jason shick?
The antichrist will soon be revealed, who many of the earth will thinking to be JESUS, but is not. He will seem to bring “peace and revival” to the middle east and to the world. But by that “peace and revival” many will be spiritual slain and destroyed. Already that curse is in the congregations, disguised to appear as The Holy Spirit, for “satan himself is transformed into an angel of Light. It is no great thing, then, if his ministers be transformed into the ministers of Righteousness, whose ends shall be according to their works.” For “the devil knoweth that he hath but a short time,” and will seek to “make away many.”
Beware of this film. For no human on this earth is fit to portray THE HOLY LORD OF GLORY JESUS CHRIST.
I do believe that Mel Gibson is, in essence, guilty of betraying THE LORD JESUS CHRIST into the hands of sinners, as THE KING JESUS CHRSIT SAID “THE SON of man goeth, as It Is Written of HIM, but woe to that man by whom HE is betrayed. It would have been good for that man if he had never been born.” It is a sick blasphemy and wickedness for Mel Gibson, or anyone else, to gather money or earthly fame by making a movie about the sufferings of THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. Those who accept such money are guilty of The Holy King’s Blood and they do betray HIM with a kiss, as did Judas.
For hollywood to use THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST so falsely as to make HIS sufferings into entertainment is an utter outrage. They have to themselves turned THE GRACE OF GOD into scathing debate, juding the issues not according to HIS FATH and HIS WILL, but, rather, as a means for vainglory and the debate of men who do not love or know THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.
Woe to Mel Gibson’s soul, for he puts to himself THE LORD to an open shame, and crucifies to himself THE SON OF GOD afresh.
THE LORD JESUS CHRIST has no pleasure in man’s money, early fame, or vainglory praise. “That which is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in THE SIGHT OF GOD.
Catholics will probably love the movie, because it will bring lots of dollars to their greedy coffers, and they serve not THE LORD JESUS CHRIST; but, that which is an offense to GOD, but disguised by THE NAME OF GOD used falsely, they love and embrace.
THE LORD JESUS CHRIST SAID “This is an evil generation. It seeketh a sign.” How much more evil is it if it has to see a movie to believe? Then it’s not faith in sincerity and truth, but it’s feigned.
Anne Emmerich, whose supposed “visions” cannot be proven, is a liar. And, in fact, her writings can be proven as lies, seeing that she speaks much blasphemy in them. For THE LIGHT OF GOD’S WORD reproves the darkness. For GOD has no mother. The GODHEAD nature of JESUS CHRIST has no mother, as HE SAID “Before Abraham was, I AM.” And “As HE SAID “I AM THE ALPHA and THE OMEGA, THE FIRST, and THE LAST, THE BEGINNING and THE END, THE ALMIGHTY.” Again, HE SAID, “Before ME, there was no GOD, and after ME, there is no GOD.” Those who try to use the fact that THE LORD JESUS CHRIST was born to a woman as an excue to exalt Mary above CHRIST does so to their own eternal damnation. As HE SAID “Thou shalt have no gods before ME.” Ann Emmerich speaks many other like abominable lies. Therefore she is to be shunned and loathed.
Woe to this evil world. The end draws nigh. “The Day of THE LORD shall come as a thief in the night, in the which the heavens shall pass away with A Great Noise, and the elements shall melt with A Fervent Heat, and the earth also, and the works that are therein, shall be burned up.”
THE LORD JESUS CHRIST will come again The Second Time in Glory and will, by fire, cause this world to vanish. This current world and it’s buildings will “be no more remembered, nor come into mind.”
THE LORD will slay all those who have pierced HIM and have wickedly used HIS HOLY NAME. “HE will not hold him guiltless who taketh HIS NAME in vain.”
Woe to Mel Gibson. All who love THE LORD JESUS CHRIST in TRUTH should reject this movie and, instead, read THE WORD OF GOD, thinking about THE TRUTH OF THE SCRIPTURE, in sincerity.
GLORY TO THE ALMIGHTY GOD and HIS HOLY SON JESUS CHRIST THE LORD. “There is no other.” Amen.
I SUPPORT THE FILM
Here we are , Christians starving to get closer to Jesus by seeing the intensity of Good Friday.
And igotistical malcontents who know nothing of Christianity waving their arms to gain attention.
If Christ forgave those that crusified Him,
who are we not to do the same.
So my advise to the outsiders is sit back and let us be. Maybe someday the love of Christ will touch you too.
Here we are , Christians starving to get closer to Jesus by seeing the intensity of Good Friday.
And igotistical malcontents who know nothing of Christianity waving their arms to gain attention.
If Christ forgave those that crusified Him,
who are we not to do the same.
So my advise to the outsiders is sit back and let us be. Maybe someday the love of Christ will touch you too.
Does the word “paranoid schizophrenic” mean anything to some of you?
Wacky people in this world…..
ITS A MOVIE! JUST A MOVIE.
Hey Jason, buddy,
I guess hermeneutics is not your strongpoint buddy. How bout we not grab Scripture and apply it how we want? How bout we let the Bible read the way is was meant to be read, instead of handling the Word of God deceitfully.
Woe, woe, whoa Nelly. Let’s hold off on the woes for about two minutes and realize that while God will judge the wicked, if you desire their downfall, you share in it. The Lord God requires that you “act justly and to LOVE MERCY and to WALK HUMBLY with your God.” First, you do not love mercy, as evidenced by your post. Second, you aren’t walking humbly with your God by elevating yourself to everyone’s judge, pronouncing doom on everyone. That’s God’s job. It seems you are getting a little too big for your britches.
My name is Misty Erickson and I work for Youth for Christ in Holton Kansas. I am so very proud of Mr. Mel Gibson for the stand he is making for Jesus Christ. I was already one of this most avid fans for movies such as Braveheart and We Were Soldiers and more, but this is the BEST! I am so proud of him for standing up for our JESUS!
My prayers are with him and his family and the film, and we plan to take our clubs, (YFC is an outreach ministry); to the film as soon as it gets to Topeka.
If there is some way I can help support it other than prayer please let me know!
Thank you!
Blessings all over Mr. Gibson, his family and all involved with the making of “The Passion”!
Sincerely,
>
can anyone tell me when the film will be released in the uk because i am doing as level re and we are actually studying the passion narratives at the moment and it would make a great trip.
jessica-lynne: you pray God inspires Mel Gibson to direct the scenes as close as possible to actual events. A direct quote from Mr.Gibson, ” The Holy Spirit directed the movie-I just directed traffic.”
jessica-lynne: you pray God inspires Mel Gibson to direct the scenes as close as possible to actual events. A direct quote from Mr.Gibson, ” The Holy Spirit directed the movie-I just directed traffic.” I agree with All my heart-may God bless Mr. Gibson’s courage and love for the risen Christ. Thanks to all who can respect the man and what I believe to be one of the most important works in history.
you pray God inspires Mel Gibson to direct the scenes as close as possible to actual events. A direct quote from Mr.Gibson, ” The Holy Spirit directed the movie-I just directed traffic.” I agree with All my heart-may God bless Mr. Gibson’s courage and love for the risen Christ. Thanks to all who can respect the man and what I believe to be one of the most important works in history.
you pray God inspires Mel Gibson to direct the scenes as close as possible to actual events. A direct quote from Mr.Gibson, ” The Holy Spirit directed the movie-I just directed traffic.” I agree with All my heart-may God bless Mr. Gibson’s courage and love for the risen Christ. Thanks to all who can respect the man and what I believe to be one of the most important works in history.
I have read many of your comments, Im not much of a movie person myself, but i beleive that my Jesus is real and i am oferjoyed when i see that a movie is being made of HIM. Movies have been made of Martin Luther, Cleopatra, the army, the president, and why not for the greatest man who ever lived, the son of God who took away the sins of the World!!!!
It amazes me that we may be watching what sounds like a beautiful movie in the back room of some megaplex. My children all attend Catholic school and my high schooler came home with a flyer offering an Ash Wednesday Mass followed by a showing of The Passion in a local theatre. Tickets for the movie are $12 and are NOT available at the door. I think we may have to know a secret handshake and be led to the proper theatre. I will be attending but I am so discouraged with the state of affairs in our society. Why must we as Christians be denied the right to see a movie which accurately depicts the death of our Saviour, Jesus Christ. If anyone is offended, the so be it. I am offended on a daily basis by the songs that I hear on the radio, but I do not think that they apply to me or my life.
I COMPLETELY SUPPORT MEL GIBSON IN PORTRAYING THIS MOVIE because the word of God says we have to become all things to all men and the generation that we live in technology and movies are very catchy especially to young people. I pray that salvation would take place and lives would be changed, rededicated, surrendered. I thank God for this movie it is an excellent evangelistic tools. if one soul alone gets saved by this movie then the task was accomplished. the bottom line of this all is salvation of souls. Precious in the sight of the Lord is one soul turning there life over to him. Jason your getting a little carried away your using correct scriptures just incorrectly and out of context. Second most if you feel so strongly concerning this film, it is your opinion but at no point should you escalate from opinion to stoning people with your words. I am saved, sanctified and filled with the Holy Ghost and i was offended with your statements. What sort of testimony do you have. In your writing at no time did you exemplify the fruit of the spirit. gentleness, meekness…..etc. yes you have the scripture thing down but the application there of you need to ask the Holy Spirit for guidance. In addition to your passing judgement on Mel Gibson and others involved. Where in the bible does it say that you ought to judge and render judgement. For theres only one judge and excecutioner and its GOD. oK if mel gibson is guilty of taking money in the name of the lORD then so are the people who wrote all the other different versions of the bible because they have copyrights on them except the king james. IF you again read the word of God a workman is worthy of his hire. Mel Gibson spent tedious time working on it and hes not getting money for just using the name of the Lord but for his labor. His job. Did God tell you to bring warning to Mel Gibson and others because you sound to me like an old testament prophet. But wait God called these people to speak his judgement and fore warn them and bring about repentance did he call you. Please my friend be very slow to pass judgement on others. and throwing stones at cahtolics where did you see Jesus doing that? Not once are we suppose to act higher or lower any person because of there beliefs differ. we ought to love them to Christ. “Stoning them verbally is an excellent evangelistic tool, way better than this movie.” Anyways like i said Mel Gibson God Bless you and cause his face to shine upon you and i am going to keep this movie in prayer because it has the ability to change lives.
I think that in all the stir over whether Mr. Gibson’s movie will strike the right cord or if he took liberties here or there, if whether he totally deviated from the word of God still leaving us to wonder what really happened as our Lord and Savior confronted the cross, if it will engender anti-semetic sentiment or portray it as it was, thus clarifying in a poignant way that we all had a hand in His death begs that we take a collective breath and simply trust the Holy Spirit to drive the point that He wants make and to minister through this important work the way He has elected to do. God is the same God today, tomorrow and forever more and His thoughts are far above ours, His ways past finding out. We can take heart in knowing that for such a time as this, God chose Mr. Gibson to take on this task with all of its scourgings, persecutions and criticisms, that is simply part of the job, whether we support it or not! God once asked of us, and I believe that He is still asking that we “be still and know that He is God, He will see to what He saw… whatever His intention for the film, He is faithful to watch over His word to perform it! I am encouraged by all the dialogue this movie has generated, but at the end of the day, God is still requiring that we trust Him. To Mr. Gibson, thank you for your bravery and obedience in taking on this task in the face of critics, colleagues , the curious and the doubting and unbelieving; I believe that eyes have not seen nor have ears heard nor has it entered into the heart of man what God has in store for them that love Him and are called according to His purpose. God bless you, and remember that wisdom is justified of her children.
Dear People,
Regarding Mr. Gibson and his wonderful movie ..is he, as I believe, a member of Opus Dei?
Jackel: You find the story of Jesus doesn’t make for good storying telling. You frankly boring. You laughed your — off at Mr. Gibson, called us stupid, then laughed and called us stupid again for our believe system. That two thousand years ago people were to blind and miserable to understand reality. A thousand years from now some of won’t believe what Hitler did. Some of us already don’t.! Given that 98% of the worlds population believes in a God-and our Risen God Jesus is a huge part of that believe- kinda makes me wonder about your thesis on “The Flaws of Religion” But then there are alot of ‘Stupid ‘ educated fools out there. You read your bible so then you know-‘the Devil prowls the earth in search of souls. Be careful.It’s a very omniscient claim that ‘tons of the bible is made up.’ Yet another impressive statement. You question the Bible and the life story of Jesus? Never has anyone changed the lives of so many as this one solitary life. You’ve mentioned studies have been done suggesting this and that. What studies, by whoever. Scholars? When? yesterday, fifty years ago, a hundred years ago, tomorrow? I’ed put my money on this one solitary life. This is the foundation of an entire belief system. You go on about how the church has led to the death of millions, the murder of millions, over a damn Jesus believe. and that keeps fueling the fire. Another crap movie that directors don’t use subtitiles with because they have no story to tell. Are you also educated in movie making? When I meant my husband we just looked at each other and without words(subtitles) understood so much. Like you said, ‘you crack me up.’ You believe the church creates hate and Mr.Gibson is trying to turn us over to the dark side. He is trying to save his soul as well as countless others and your so smart that your not falling for it. Sounds like alot of displaced anger. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was making people believe he doesn’t exist. Watch out.
Jackel: You find the story of Jesus doesn’t make for good storying telling. You frankly boring. You laughed your — off at Mr. Gibson, called us stupid, then laughed and called us stupid again for our believe system. That two thousand years ago people were to blind and miserable to understand reality. A thousand years from now some of won’t believe what Hitler did. Some of us already don’t.! Given that 98% of the worlds population believes in a God-and our Risen God Jesus is a huge part of that believe- kinda makes me wonder about your thesis on “The Flaws of Religion” But then there are alot of ‘Stupid ‘ educated fools out there. You read your bible so then you know-‘the Devil prowls the earth in search of souls. Be careful.It’s a very omniscient claim that ‘tons of the bible is made up.’ Yet another impressive statement. You question the Bible and the life story of Jesus? Never has anyone changed the lives of so many as this one solitary life. You’ve mentioned studies have been done suggesting this and that. What studies, by whoever. Scholars? When? yesterday, fifty years ago, a hundred years ago, tomorrow? I’ed put my money on this one solitary life. This is the foundation of an entire belief system. You go on about how the church has led to the death of millions, the murder of millions, over a damn Jesus believe. and that keeps fueling the fire. Another crap movie that directors don’t use subtitiles with because they have no story to tell. Are you also educated in movie making? When I meant my husband we just looked at each other and without words(subtitles) understood so much. Like you said, ‘you crack me up.’ You believe the church creates hate and Mr.Gibson is trying to turn us over to the dark side. He is trying to save his soul as well as countless others and your so smart that your not falling for it. Sounds like alot of displaced anger. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was making people believe he doesn’t exist. Watch out.
I meant belief system-not believe system. Thank you.
I just wanted to put my two cents worth in on this movie. I think it is the best thing to happen. Jesus our Savior died for everyone and if some groups of people have trouble with this or think it’s giving their group a bad name, then so be it. We all put him on the cross, for we are all sinners but because of Jesus suffering, death and resurrection we can all live eternally with Him. All we have to do is believe.
I say thank you to Mel Gibson for making this film a possible, Just from watching the clips, I get very emotional, because I know Jesus suffered all this for me. God’s blessings to Mr. Gibson, his family and all who view this movie and believe. I pray for the poor souls who don’t believe, but may after watching this movie.
Nancy:I also get overwhelmed when I see clips or the trailer of Mel Gibsons movie. We both know that its the ‘Holy Spirit’ that evokes such emotion. An emotion that we all dream of feeling. The feeling of true love, in the form of a gift called,’The Passion’. Not only do so many of us reject it but we crucify it. STILL. It’s in our face and we still can’t recognize the sinister force trying to sabotage this film. Mel Gibson did. He wore a crucifix, a scapular, had mass said on the set everday before filming, because as he put it, “I knew there would be warring on the set between good and evil. So I put on the armor of God.” Also, in response to the claim that he is just trying to make money on this film, I believe it was thirty million dollars, of his own money he use to help in the making of the his movie ‘The Passion’. So please recognize the passion, the peace, the faith, the service, the love it took to do this great, great service for the lord. Can you even imagine the Glory in Heaven? Can you imagine the Glory that will be on February 25, when the movie is released to all the public? What a victory! Mother Teresa passed little cards out that read: The fruit of silence is prayer, The fruit of prayer is faith, The fruit of faith is love, The fruit of love is service, The fruit of service is peace. —Mother Teresa
Jannie:
Thanks for the comments from my previous note. Did you watch the special on Mon. night? I missed most of it but saw the last 5-10 minutes. I know Mr. Gibson has a lot of money, but 30 million is no drop in the bucket. I feel the Lord is leading him in this project of showing the world all that Jesus our Savior did for us. The Holy Spirit is busy working in many people and I know many will come to know Christ after viewing this movie.
My only problem is that it’s on Ash Wednesday and we have church that night so I won’t get to see it, unless they show an early matinee. I’ll be first in line to see it on the 26th though. God bless and let’s keep praying for all the lost sheep of our Lord.
Congradulations to Mel Gibson on this daring thing of making a film of Jesus. Especially a man of such fame.. this is really something! Can’t wait to see it .. there are many views on this movie but to see it will help me decide for myself! Ive been waiting for an accurate film on Jesus with as much art and impact as this movie is supposed to potray..
Where are the christian artists who can depict the truth like this? The message of the Cross is the most offensive yet the most redeeming message we can know ! It is offensive because it says we are all sinners.. meaning without our link to God we are hopeless. We are created beings and made for one thing.. to please God and know God .. through Jesus! The agony Jesus went through was the one of a God himself, as man ( his creation) taking the sin of the world so that we can attain eternal life by accepting that only He Himself coming as a sin sacrifice can save us..! This is what the Bible says it is the truth that applies today!! This is what I believe! God bless!
HELLO
I WANT TO RESPOND TO THESE RESPONSES SOME OF THE RESPONSES ARE CORRECT AND SOME OF THEM I WILL BE PRAYING FOR YOU! IM SO HAPPY THAT MY HEAVENLY FATHER HAS CHOSE MEL GIBSON TO DO THIS MOVIE IN THESE DAYS IN TIME. FIRST AND FOREMOST WE ARE LIVING IN THE LAST DAYS AND JESUS WANTS HIS GOSPEL TO BE PREACHED ALL OVER THE WORLD AND THIS IS ANOTHER WAY THAT HE IS GETTING THIS DONE AND I PRAISE THE LORD FOR THIS PROJECT! YOU KNOW YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD FROM BIRTH THAT JESUS DIED ON THE CROSS BUT KNOW ONE HAS BEEN ABLE TO DEPICT THE TREVAIL THAT JESUS SUFFERED ON THE CROSS ALL WE KNOW IS THAT HE HAD NAILS IN HIS HAND AND FEET BUT YOU DON’T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED ALL TV HAS EVER BETRAYED IS HIM BEING BEATING AND HANGING ON THE CROSS, BUT NOW PRAISE THE LORD HIS SON LIFE IS GOING TO BE REVEALED LIKE IT SHOULD BE! AND I THANK GOD FOR THAT. I THINK GOD HAS ORDAINED THIS MOVIE FOR THESE DAY AND TIMES AND THAT THROUGH THIS MOVIE THAT SOULS WILL BE SAVED FROM DAMNATION TO HELL!
GOD BLESS
CINDY
To: Jeff
I’m a Traditional Roman Catholic that is baptized since birth, raised, taught and believes in the True Teaching of the One, Holy, Apostolic, Roman Catholic Church and THANKED GOD for the graces I’ve received in believing in His Word through His Church here on earth (Blessed are the Poor in Spirit for theirs is the Kingdom of God).
In your atheistic attitude: to those who believe, no explanation is necessary, to those who do not believe, no explanation is possible and they will be cast out in the sea of fire where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Thank God that hopefully through Mel Gibson’s film, the generations of today will somehow believe (by the grace of God) the Redemptive action of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Humble yourself Jeff and inquire questions at the Priestly Confraternity of the Society of Saint Pius X concerning the Truth about the Doctrine of Jesus Christ as handed down from the Apostles.
I praise Mel Gibson for his film, I believe Mel knows the crisis in the Catholic Church that’s why maybe GOD inspired Mel Gibson in taking a stand for the faithfull portraying of the film in his capacity.
God bless you Mel Gibson and to you Jeff I pray that you be converted.
Arleingh
The way that this movie depicts the final moment of Christ is shameful. The “moral” Pilate is nauseating, a man who is responsibe for the brutal crucifiction of tens of thousands of people is shown so very innacurately as a benevolent gardian of his people, this message is propaganda of the lowest form. I would compare it to a fictional movie that would depict Hitler as a gentle man faced with difficult decisions.
This is a film with no redeeming value. The acting is poor, the message is violent, and it betrays the message of Christ, a message of love and tolerance. I went to see it because I thought that a movie with this much controversy may have some artistic value. However, it leaves an acrid taste in the mouth and is clearly an abomination.
Please do not suppport this discusting snuff film, it is contrary to harmony and brotherly love. The ignorance of humanity never seems to have a limit: “Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do”
Dear Mel,
Beautiful & beloved child of God….I saw the movie “Passion of The Christ” today & I was speechless.Many in the theatre had brought their kleenex. My soul was moved & touched beyond words. You are truly evangelizing through this movie. I cannot help but realize & appreciate the fact that you followed your heart when you decided to do this movie.You answered God’s call, you the chosen one…… I thank you for that. Through your work,(God’swork) you are touching many….. I love you as my brother in Jesus Christ & I respect you. I am truly touched & moved by your film the Passion…Thank you Mel for following your heart, & God’s calling.You are an instrument, HIS instrument….. You are evangelizing the world through your work of art Passion of Jesus.Hope to see a sequel.
I love you, thank you & bless you…..Eveline
Once again Hollywood makes a movie about christ and guess what color he is white. How come someone can’t make an accurate movie about christ. Read your bible and if anyone can find any description of Jesus being white tell me. Revelation 1:14 describes Jesus and it does not say he is white. The problems that lies with this country everything that is not white can’t be consider good. Stop being so color blind. White is not always right. That why this country is so full of hate.
Just once can Jesus be black or any other color besides white even in a fictional movie. Then and only then ,will this world be able to follow Jesus teachings. There are more so called preachers and christians that are not doing what Jesus instructed them to do. Love each other as you would yourself.
Wow Alvin,
Your racism is very evident. To those that
believe in the message that Christ brought, what
shade his skin was does not matter. Even if
he had been an albino, white as you complain. It
would not change the message he brought by a
single word.
However, there have been movies that have
portrayed Jesus being every shade of skin on
this planet.
Thankfully, souls have no pigmatation.
Brett
Just wanted to say I saw the movie yesterday and was so emotionally drained by all that our Lord and Savior endured for us, I was the last one to leave the theater. It was moving and real, Mel Gibson is truly working for our Lord and delivering a strong message for all to see and hear. But there will always be some who will find fault and refuse to believe. The Passion of the Christ is a mighty powerful message that has sent for all to see and learn. I will continue to pray for all the lost souls who condemn this film and refuse to belive in our Lord. Thank you Mr. Gibson for making this film, for listening when God called on you to do this enormous job. May God bless you and your family always.
Hey, Nicholas Homick,
Why don’t you learn how to SPELL before you post another message anywhere???
CRUCIFIXION is not spelled crucifiction, you dolt.
GUARDIAN is not spelled gardian.
DISGUSTING is not spelled discusting.
These weren’t typos, you are simply an idiot.
It is obvious from reading these posts, that they are usually written in the same way that a hammer comes down on a nail. I am right, you are wrong. I bless you, because you are worthy of being blessed by me. You are an idiot, don’t you know how to spell?. I know this Gibson movie is a snuff film, but it is about a subject I am not given any leeway on, so therefore it is a beautiful snuff film, all about God’s love and redemption. That is what I was told to believe, right? And, by the way, idiot, can you not quote from the third removed, fifth revised and highly sanitized version of the Word of God properly? Here let me show you how, you heathen of little worth. Oh, and yes, you are forgiven. Etc, etc….nice people as a whole I am sure, but mostly serious people, with silly words. It reminds me that diversity is a good thing and also very entertaining.
I haven’t seen this movie yet, but my Grandmother did. I wanted to post her comments: “I went to see the movie ‘The Passion of Christ.’ It was enjoyable because there was a lot of realism. The noise was too much for me. I thought the sound effects played toward the younger audience. I always knew that Jesus suffered a lot and that it was real, but if the whip was laid on Him as often as I heard it cracked, I don’t see how any human could have lived to get to the cross. I was moved to tears. Our God truly is awesome that He would have made the provision for this to happen for the benefit of all mankind.”
This movie was truely moving, and I dont see how anyone can see this movie and not be moved to tears…tears were streaming down my face during the whole movie…knowing He went through that and it was for us…for me…im truely inspired.
This is just another “Jesus movie”! When are we going to stop having six ft. tall model/actors with long hippy hair portaying Jesus Christ. Talk about blasphemy! Isaiah 53 prophetically says a lot about what Jesus Christ was like (maybe Mel doesn’t real the old testiment) And in the New Testiment it says that it is a disgrace for a man to have long hair. Also archeoligical evidence shows that in Jesus day the average height was around 5 ft. So whats up Mel?? Don’t bore me with the “artistic” version of Jesus the Christ, I want to see and feel what he was really like. All of us in the general public aren’t so gullable you know! We all appreciate that he died a horrific death. I couldn’t even imagine having nails driven into my hands and feet let alone all the flogings. Who hasn’t winced and ben dumbfounded wondering how any human being could do such a thing to another? You don’t have to spell it out for me, I’m sold and bought, thank God! I love Mel Gibson I just don’t like how this one part of Jesus life and death are being packaged. After all we know he came and he died for “all humanity” but he rose again on the third day, and is seated on the right hand of the father in heaven. He accomplished his goal and there is no need to feel sorry for him now. Praise God! Peace and Love to all!
To Jakarta above who was concerned about spelling. It’s like Mary saying to Jesus “get the ketsup off your face before you are flogged” It simply doesn’t matter!
Everyone says The Passion of the Christ is good. I am sure it has the heart pounding action as the secular films do. I am sure it includes scenes that make you laugh and cry. No doubt, it is filled with all the Hollywood glamour that makes some of their films great. However, that is not what the Bible is about. The Bible is about truth and reality (2 Timothy 2:15, James 1:18, 1 Thessalonians 2:13, Colossians 1:5, Ephesians 1:13). No stunts were performed in making the Bible, it is all real. Sometimes reality does not grip us the same way a Hollywood movie might. Jesus walked on the water. He did not run and dance (like a Hollywood film might make it seem), he simply walked (Matthew 14:25-29). You cannot take truth, and twist it to make it interesting or fun. You have to present truth as it is with no changes whatsoever (Revelation 22:18-19, Proverbs 30:6).
Notice, the Apostles did not put on plays for the people. All they did was preach the word (Acts 5:42, 17:2-3).
Gibson said that “…he consulted scholars, theologians, priests and spiritual writers before scripting the film…”* . Gibson left out the Bible and Bible teachers. I cannot trust a work that is based on man’s ideas. If you make a movie about the Bible, the Bible should be consulted as the foremost authority followed by Bible teachers (but the Bible somes first regardless of what they say). In addition, the ministry gifts do not list anything pertaining to a movie director or close to it (1 Corinthians 12).
Revelation 22:19 says “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”
That is self explanatory. This movie is mixed with man’s ideas which were added to the Bible, and changed some of the meaning of the events and scriptures.
1 Timothy 1:4 says “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;”
This is exactly what is happening. “Seducing spirits” in this case could be applied to this movie. This movie seduces you into thinking it is the truth, but it isn’t. The Bible is.
Galatians 1:6 “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:”
You have to stick to the Bible. If you do not, you will soon be “…removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ…” You can’t accept this movie’s account of the Gospel. You can only accept the account written in the Bible.
Galatians 1:7 “Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.”
This movie is a perverted gospel. It is based on man’s ideas and interpretation.
Matthew 24:24 “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”
Believe me, this movie is a wonder, and is deceiving all of us. Sure, it is baited with some truth . If it was not, then more people would know better.
Exodus 20:4 “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:”
I should have put this one at the top of the list. It might as well say “Thou shalt not make unto thee any MOVIE…”. You can’t reproduce what already took place. The Bible does not paint everything that happened in the Gospels (John 21:25) as it leaves out details that we try to make up for. The Bible does not give enough detail to justify making any movie. To do so, only results in us unsuccessfully filling in the gaps properly. The Bible says not to do it, and we shouldn’t!
The successful showing of this movie proved something good, though. It did show the hunger of Christians is strong for God. However, that hunger needs to be satisfied from the Bible, not a movie.
i love Latin so much, even though it’s a dead tongue en masse. does any one have any idea when the movie will be shown in Philippine theatres? do e-mail me.
— mack
Mark,
You’ve said that you love LATIN though it’s a dead language and it seems to me that you’re a Filipino, you can check out this site http://www.sspxasia.com/Countries/Philippines/index.htm Hopefully by the grace of God you will experience the Traditional Latin Mass which is the True Mass of the Roman Catholic Church, outside of it there is no salvation.
May God bless you.
Arleingh
I agree with you James
James: you should have done a little bit more research on all the material Mel Gibson, researched. He did in fact read both the Old and the New Testament. As well as other material that you haven’t mentioned. He clearly said so in an interview I watched.
James: you should have done a little bit more research on all the material Mel Gibson, researched. He did in fact read both the Old and the New Testament. As well as other material that you haven’t mentioned. He clearly said so in an interview I watched.
Arleingh,
You said “Hopefully by the grace of God you will experience the Traditional Latin Mass which is the True Mass of the Roman Catholic Church, outside of it there is no salvation.”
Are you baiting or proselytizing? You realize that Constantine, who initiated the state religion of Rome, which is the Roman Catholic church, was himself a slow-to-convert pagan, and simply wished to house the many mixed beliefs of the time (Mithraic, Orphic, worship of Apollo and Sol Invictus and Early Christianity) under one leader, namely himself. By the time the council of Nicea was finished, I am sure Jesus was weeping. He was weeping because his message of love and personal divinity had been perverted into yet another government of preisthoods and dogmas. His simple message of personal salvation was buried. The way to salvation is still narrow, and has not improved significantly with the invention of Catholicism, nor with the derivative sects of Christianity. Jesus showed us the way, and only in your heart can you find your way back to him, not through religious governments and doctrines created by people.
The church may be a hospital for the sinner, but the healing comes from within.
Gods many blessing be upon you,
Bill
Bill
Pardon me if I made a misrepresantation in your understanding, though I believe that I’m not to any form of “baiting or proselytizing,” I was only inciting my countrymen (I suppose) to check out the website of Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX) and see for himself firsthand the information regarding the place or church wherein the Latin Tridentine Mass is still being celebrated despite the fact that our church authorities here in the Philippines are indifferent to the SSPX just because they remain faithful to the Tradition of the Roman Catholic Church and did not in any form participated in the so called “ecumenism.” Unity of different Religion? That’s preposterous!
You’ve said that “The way to salvation is still narrow, and has not improved significantly with the invention of Catholicism, nor with the derivative sects of Christianity. Jesus showed us the way, and only in your heart can you find your way back to him, not through religious governments and doctrines created by people.”
It seems that you are not a Catholic because your idea of salvation is not catholic. The following are some of the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church, please pray to the Holy Ghost for a humble enlightenment.
1. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS DIVINE
“Moreover, in order that we may perform satisfactorily the duty of embracing the true faith and of continuously persevering in it, God, through His only-begotten Son, has instituted the Church and provided it with clear signs of His institution, so that it can be recognized by all as the guardian and teacher of the revealed word.” (Vatican I, Dz 1793).
2. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS THE UNIQUE ARK OF SALVATION
“The Catholic Church firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within Her, not only pagans, but also Jews, heretics, and schismatics, cannot become participants in eternal life but will depart ‘into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock…” (Council of Florence, Dz 714).
3. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS VISIBLE AND INDEFECTIBLE
“Moreover, what the Chief of pastors and the Great Pastor of sheep, the Lord Jesus, established in the blessed Apostle Peter for the perpetual salvation and perennial good of the Church, this by the same Author must endure always in the Church which was founded upon a rock and will endure firm until the end of the ages.” (Vatican I, Dz 1824 [cf., Dz 1793 above]).
“The one Church of Christ is visible to all and will remain, according to the Will of its Author, exactly the same as He instituted it.” (Pius XI, Mortalium Animos, §15).
4. THE CHURCH IS FOUNDED UPON PETER AND HIS SUCCESSORS FOREVER
“If anyone then says that it is not from the institution of Christ the Lord Himself or by divine right that the blessed Peter has perpetual successors in the primacy over the universal Church…let him be anathema….”
“If anyone thus speaks, that the Roman Pontiff has only the office of inspection or direction but not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the universal Church, not only in things which pertain to faith and morals, but also in those which pertain to the discipline and government of the Church spread over the whole world…let him be anathema.” (Vatican I, Dz 1825, 1831).
“But it is opposed to the truth and in evident contra-diction with the divine constitution of the Church to hold that, while each bishop is individually bound to obey the authority of the Roman Pontiffs, taken collectively the bishops are not so bound.” (Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum).
6. CHURCH TEACHING CANNOT CHANGE
Revelation, constituting the object of Catholic faith, was not completed with the apostles (Condemned by Saint Pius X, Lamentabili, Dz 2021).
“Further, by divine and Catholic faith, all those things must be believed which are contained in the written word of God and in Tradition, and which are proposed by the Church, either in a solemn pronouncement or in her ordinary and universal teaching power, to be believed as divinely revealed…”
“Hence, also, that understanding of its sacred dogmas must be perpetually retained, which Holy Mother Church has once declared; and there must never be recession from that meaning under the specious name of a deeper understanding… definitions of the Roman Pontiff from himself, but not from the consensus of the Church, are unalterable” (Vatican I, Dz 1792; 1800; 1839).
7. PROTESTANTS AND OTHER NON-CATHOLICS DO NOT HAVE THE FAITH
“Now it is manifest that he who adheres to the teaching of the Church, as to an infallible rule, assents to whatever the Church teaches; otherwise, if, of the things taught by the Church, he holds what he chooses to hold, and rejects what he chooses to reject, he no longer adheres to the teaching of the Church as to an infallible rule, but to his own will… Therefore it is clear that such a heretic with regard to one article has no faith in the other articles, but only a kind of opinion in accordance with his own will” (Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, II II, Q.5, A.3).
AD MAJOREM DEI GLORIAM
Arleingh
Oh you Catholics are funny. It’s a riot. It seems that only you yourselves think that you are devine, holy, infallable and so on. Who cares what the second vatican council said or any other man made council.
The first church was made up of Jews. Jesus was a Jew, the Apostles were Jewish the first converts were Jewish.
The Catholic church was created by Romans the enemy of the Jew. Go figure! Are they the real church or the counterfiet? Come on, use your brain, do some research, think outside the church. Ah ha, get it, “outside the church.” Read the Revelation.
i have two thoughts on this movie. it’s great that it’s out, and gives people who aren’t very religios a chance to see what jesus did for us, but i also don’t think we should depict images of Christ. the way we should learn about what happened is to read gods word in the bible. all in all i think it’s great, haven’t seen it yet though.
This movie changed my life. I thought about Jesus fo the next 2 days. I got a magizene on Jesus and I read the Holy Bible. I prayed to God and Jesus every 5 minuets. I asked me parents about God and Jesus for 2 days. If you didn’t see this movie you should go see right away.
Dee
Sorry if we Catholics somehow displeases you because we fully understood that the New Testament of Jesus Christ is a sign of contradiction and the fall of many. And please, be humble, you’re not well informed in the history and Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church. If you want to give an adverse opinion, qualify your basis and not on “personal feelings or understanding.”
Arleingh,
Are you aware of the bloodshed the Catholic church is responsible for. The crusades, the inquisitions and trying to overthrough countless countries to gain power over those countries? Are you aware that a no Catholic is allowed to marry into the Royal Family of England because the Roman Catholic church tried to overthrough Queen Elizabeth back in the 1500’s. Are you aware that the trouble in Ireland is because of the Roman Catholic church. They want to have political control over Ireland so they keep the war going between the Protestants and Catholics. England refuses to religuish control so the war continues with much bloodshed.
The history of the Roman Catholic Church is not pretty. All you have to do is read some history books and you will find out how much blood is on their hands.
Arleingh,
Thank you for your lengthy response.
We are supposed to discuss the movie, but I am never good at staying on task. Oh well…
I suppose all I was trying to say is that it is possible that your divinity does not derive from the words in a book. Certainly that was true for Jesus. He did not require a textbook for wisdom, or the support of peers and church, for convictions. He stood alone with the Holy Spirit and did the will of the Father, plain and simple. That is the Trinity. You are also the Trinity, formed in the image of God, just like Jesus and his contemporaries. You stand alone, as three in one, responsible for your thoughts and actions. Do not use the thoughts of others as a crutch, you are not a cripple.
Jesus tried to make us see our divinity, but all we would see were our idols, and that kept us from actually seeing the Christ (unto God), and not just the man. As a result, Jesus was murdered by the people of his time, by those who were blinded by idols of self-righteous fear of his godly power and wisdom. We continue, to this day, to fail to see the Christ in every man. We murder, rape, steal, and separate ourselves out of fear. Not much has changed.
As it was before our birth, there will come a time when our childish notions will pass away. We will remember that we were never born, and will never die. Until then we will play distracting games with religion, politics, greed, sex, piety, pain, pleasure, etc. Our true nature, however, never changes. All is well, you are already perfect.
Peace,
Bill
p.s. Regarding the movie “The Passion”. If Jesus was the director of the movie, WWJD? (what would Jesus do?) The movie would be “G” rated and earn 100 billion dollars for charity. And it would be miraculously spoken in the native language of the viewer, without subtitles! Me thinks I’m losing it!
That was beautiful Bill. So poetic. Amen!
Dee
Are you aware that there are history books, Novels, Stories, Ideologies, Governments, People, Cults, Religion, Media, Movies and Lucifer himself have done and is doing everything within its power to discredit, harm, annihilate, dismantle for centuries, since the beginning of Christendom, the Faith instituted by Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself?
“But the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
You’ve only read the side of the “Attack.” For example: the film The Last Temptation of Christ. What are we to do? pretend that the attack doesn’t exist? are we just to nibble our fingernails? Or to stand up and fight?!
And now comes this Movie of Mel Gibson depicting in an almost vivid form how Our Lord Jesus Christ bore in patience unto death the sufferings to redeem us from the bondage of Satan. The enemy is not of the flesh, but of the principalities and powers.
Indeed, there are many abuses such as in our history here in the Philippines by the Spanish Friars, even some of the Popes are in Hell! Because having the Grace of God to know the Truth and perverting it is abominable.
There are good books by the Doctors of the Church, Saints, and Apologetic Materials (Ex: Books from TAN Publishing Co.) answering and commenting from those negative accusations
against the Catholic Church. I suggest that you read them also so that you’ll have a second thought if the blood really rests on the hand of the Divine Authority of the Roman Catholic Church. Moral Law dictates that Justice requires for every crime, there is equal and just punishment.
AD MAJOREM DEI GLORIAM!
Arleingh
Bill
I suppose that you’re not a catholic or if you are, the notion of your catholic faith is somewhat vague spirituality or to purely social concerns. You dot not concern or you don’t know the “supernatural” side of the Catholic Faith. It seems that you’re a super genius that you don’t need for anyone’s thoughts or any qualified Doctors of Philosophical and Theological thinking, lest you might be considered a cripple. I wonder who thought the first word you’ve ever spoken. Frankly speaking, the very notion of your understanding of the catholic faith is wrong and liberated. Bill, I suggest that you visit this website, http://www.sspx.org/articles_index.htm, to inform you of the crisis in the Roman Catholic Church.
And as for the movie, you don’t have to ridicule it. does it mean that if the Muslims, Buddhists make a film on how their faith was born, will you still be that cynical?
“The movie of Mr. Mel Gibson, a well known Traditional Catholic, would appear to do a great service to the Catholic Faith by placing before the eyes of hopefully very many people the great work of Redemption accomplished by Our Lord Jesus Christ in His Passion and Cross (Fr. Paul Morgan, District Superior, Society of Saint Pius X, Great Britain).” Of course, detractors of this film will appear everywhere because of the nature (based on the accounts of St. Anne Catherine Emmerich, City of God by St. Mary of Aggreda and the New Testament) of how this movie was made. If you will observe the references of the movie, they were not protestant or liberated catholics.
Bill if you’re a Catholic, you have the strict obligation to study the true doctrine of your Catholic Faith. And if you’re not, try to read and meditate on the story of the conversion of Saul (St. Paul) in the Bible.
Between the lines of your comments suggests that you’re an intelligent person. Should the story of Saul be repeated in you? Oh! How blessed and joyful will be the Catholic Church for the return of His precious son.
God bless!
Arleingh
I think the movie is an orginal piece and that the bible can be used for alot of great movies not to mention all the great lessons it already teaches us. If you don’ t like the movie don’t complain about, you paid for the ticket. If you think its racist ir whatever don’t take a fit.
Arleingh,
“And as for the movie, you don’t have to ridicule it. does it mean that if the Muslims, Buddhists make a film on how their faith was born, will you still be that cynical? ”
Actually, I was not being cynical. If Jesus had made and directed the film in 2004, it would be a huge draw, and the film would contain the truths of his ministry which are definitely “G” rated. The miracles part simply meant that the movie would speak in tongues tailored to each individual’s ability to “hear”.
“Bill if you’re a Catholic, you have the strict obligation to study the true doctrine of your Catholic Faith. And if you’re not, try to read and meditate on the story of the conversion of Saul (St. Paul) in the Bible.”
With all respect… give unto the Pope, what is due the Pope, and unto God what is due God. The Hindus have a saying for the attraction of the things in life, they call it the “stickiness of Maya”. We are already whole, we need do nothing. This world need know nothing of, nor can it comprehend the things of the spirit. Our obligation to divine nature is in silent attention and devotion toward God, beyond all earthly ear and eye. Another way this is stated is that you should not let your left hand know what your right hand does.
When a storm comes in, you feel the cool, heavy, humid wind in your face. You smell the water and see the dark rolling clouds, you breathe in deeply and stretch out your arms to give a welcome, for soon the cracked earth shall overflow with waters of life. This is the sweet and powerful presence of God. No books, no words, no creeds.
Peace,
Bill
Bill, you are inspiring! Your writings are as a breath of fresh cool air in a hot humid climate. Are you a writer, or just an ordinary guy with a lot of insite and wisdom? It seems that you do not follow anyone elses notions of salvation. That is great, as it is contrary to most people who are in the system of “the blind leading the blind.”
I hope you keep adding your opinion on the this site. It is far more interesting than Arleingh’s who comes off as the typical well indoctinated Catholic.
Dee,
I would just say I am Bill Q. Average and leave it at that.
There is a place for everyone on this big earth, and almost everyone has something to say. I enjoy listening to people, because you learn more from dialogue than monologue. Arleingh has much to say, and I am glad to listen. It is not so much what Arleingh says (please forgive the impersonal third person discussion), as where her heart is. I look in someones eyes and know that someday Christ will look back out at me. I think we must accept others as they are.
Have you noticed how long gazes into the eyes of another are somehow reserved for lovers, and that long gazing then is still difficult? We keep a separation between ourselves that is artificial. We hide our inner nature like we are ashamed, or that it is in some limited quantity. I think we must always reverence God in others as much as God in ourselves. The Sabbath may simply mean to rest from ways of the world and look with eyes that see only the good and the God within others and the world around us. Otherwise it is like your “…blind leading the blind.”
Most of all I just like people, and am thankful to be around them. It is a simple joy.
Peace,
Bill
Bill & Dee
Bill, my apologies for misconcepting you on your comments about the movie. On the other hand, your insights are “naturally” good even “inspiring” as what our other friend have said. But even though it is that good, the idea of understanding God is not based on individual’s perception or of “feeling” the presence of God in anyone’s capacity. That my friend is called “Naturalism.” Our Lord Jesus Christ instituted His Church upon Peter as the Vicar of Christ to “preach” the Good News baptizing them in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost that whosoever might believe will be saved and those who will not believe will be condemned. Indeed my friend I have very much to say but my understanding is not confined to a naturalistic point of view. Faith is defined as the evidence of things unseen. There is a more higher purpose of our existence here on earth that encompasses human comprehension. Truly you are poetic in observing the things around you which is clear in your eyes. But in the eyes of faith? Indeed, pride is the number one Sin because it clouds the intellect. Spare you the classification of faith? Obviously you only believe what you want to believe. What then would be your position when the time comes that you’ll be standing in the Tribunal of God?
And as for you Dee, my deepest gratitude for calling me a “typical well indoctrinated (Traditional Roman) Catholic” It proves as the fruits of my studies.
I leave you both with a simple poem…
Where are You? My God!
Oh, men of little faith
why hast thou cast thyself in ruin?
Is it love of things that embraced?
Or love of thyself that rate.
Intelligent minds that plunder,
for love of things thou hast render
Ever thought of Death?
Where no things carry which thou hast deareth.
Mercy, my Lord! Mercy!
For men have loveth misery
Ignorance cannot excuse
But accept that humility endures
Never was that time
That God!, men cannot find
For love of things they are inclined
Where are you? My Divine?
AD MAJOREM DEI GLORIAM
Arleingh
There was a beggar who spent the best years of his life, sitting on a corner, asking for alms. Every day he would sit on a basket chest outside his modest dwelling, and what he collected was just enough for his daily needs. One day, toward the end of his life, a child walked up to him and asked, “Why are you always out here in the dry sun, every day, asking for coins?”, “Because I am so poor” responded the beggar. The child was amazed at his words and said “That is not true sir, for in the basket upon which you sit is a bounty of gold coins, more I think than you or I could ever spend”. The old beggar could only cry, because what he had always wanted was so close, that he had never bothered to look. He always assumed that poverty was his lot, and so it was.
Peace,
Bill
Arleigh,
You are so well indoctrinated. I suspect you have a wonderful spirit but it seems to be trapped in the bondage of religion. I feel sorry for the likes of you because as you well know you are responsible for your own salvation, not the Catholic church. They can do nothing for you. They cannot assure your salvation. Keep searching for the truth and you will find it.
Dee
Dee
Thank you very much for the compliment. One thing I’m very certain is that Thank God I possess the Truth. Anything could lead to another but the Truth will always be the Truth. The Truth is that God became man to redeem us from the bondage of satan and to reconcile mankind with God thru the Sacrifice of Calvary. God instituted His Church to continue the sacrifice of calvary in a unbloody manner by the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, The Latin Tridentine Mass. God also instituted His Church to preach to the whole world the Gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost that whosoever will believe will be saved and those who do not will be condemned and cast into eternal fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The Deposit of Faith was given to the Apostles thru His Church and was handed down faithfully up to the present. But sadly to say, there is a crisis going on inside the Catholic Church! It is between the Liberal Catholics and the Traditional Catholics. Between the True Doctrine as against the New Age Liberal Thinking of Modernist Rome.
You said “trapped in the bondage of religion… I feel sorry for the likes of you because as you well know you are responsible for your own salvation, not the Catholic church. They can do nothing for you. They cannot assure your salvation.”
“bondage of religion?” Not at all my friend, in fact I am free because the Truth has set me free. Yes your quite right about my responsibility for my own salvation. “Our Lord Jesus Christ came down to earth to redeem mankind, and it was by means of the Cross-that He achieved this. The central point of Christ’s life on earth, the purpose for which the Son of God became man was to die on the Cross for the salvation of all men, not only the faithful, not only Catholics, but all men. Unfortunately, not all men have accepted Christ’s message but be they Buddhists, Moslems or Protestants, all – at least all who wished to be saved – are bound to achieve their salvation through the bloodshed for them by Jesus Christ.
This, of course, is very simple for us who are Catholics. This is our Faith, the Faith we have always been taught, and yet, in our own time, how many Catholics still do accept this truth, that salvation comes to all men through Jesus Christ, that outside of Christ there is no salvation? I find it extraordinary that Catholics will questions the age-old adage, “no salvation outside the Church.” This is precisely the most important question facing mankind today, just as it was in all ages. Indeed, there is nothing more vital to man than for him to know how he is to be saved, by whom he is to be saved, and in what manner he is to be saved. Can there possibly be a question of greater moment for those who inhabit the earth?
Now, it is quite certain that when we proclaim today that there is “no salvation outside the Church,” many Catholics rise up incredulously and affirm that this is nonsense, that otherwise those not in the Church must be condemned to hell. The fact is, however, that this remains a crucial tenet of interest to all mankind. As Catholics we are bound to affirm what the Church has always affirmed, because the Church is the repository of all truth: God made man and the Son of God was made man to be crucified for the salvation of all men. Can there possibly be any other source of salvation outside of the Son of God, Our Lord Jesus Christ? Can we as Catholics accept that Luther, Buddha or Mohammed are also means of eternal salvation? Are they also in heaven seated at the right hand of God? Yet today, despite the absurdity, many Catholics no longer accept that there is “no salvation outside the Church.”
Protestants or Buddhists who achieve their salvation through an act of love for God – in effect, implicitly a baptism of desire – do so through Christ and His Church. The Church teaches that no man is saved except through Our Lord Jesus Christ. This, as Catholics, is what we must believe, for it is what the Church has always taught. There is no other God, no other truth, no other salvation but Christ Jesus. This is the center, the foundation, the goal of our Christian life, and it will one day be the crowning glory of our Christian life. There is nothing, in a word, outside of Christ Jesus who is our only joy on earth and in heaven.
You understand, I am sure, how important it is to affirm these truths. Jesus Himself, and not ourselves, chose the means for us to receive His Grace. The means He chose was the Cross -, and He chose that the Cross – and His Sacrifice upon it be continued on earth upon our altars. There is no other place but upon our altars that Christ’s Calvary is continued in this world. Catholics in every age have understood the enormity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Our ancestors most certainly understood it, our ancestors who built the worthy church buildings, which adorn your country, and the extraordinary cathedrals and basilicas of Europe. Visitors the world over come to these shrines to stand in awe before the splendor of the labor and genius of our ancestors of a thousand years ago. Why did they erect such monuments, expending decade upon decade of their fragile lives to bringing forth these magnificent cathedrals? For the sake of the altar of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and for the sake of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass which is celebrated upon it. And it was Christ Himself who wished it…” (Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre – An Address Given by His Grace: Ottawa, Canada November 1975)
I hope the preceding paragraphs answers your statement.
“keep searching for the truth and you will find it” Indeed my friend, I have found the Truth but unless you become like a child you will never find the truth (Humility). I have found the Truth and I’m nurturing and cultivating it; so that these times of New Age Liberal thinking, progressive idealogies, etc., won’t deteriorate the Faith that was given to me from my Baptism since birth and found the True Doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church as against the Liberal Doctrine of the Neo-Modernist Rome.
You cannot find God outside the Roman Catholic Church, you could only feel His Omnipotence. And… It is I who feels very sorry for you… I pray that you do find Our Lord Jesus Christ who is still waiting for you, blood drenched hanging on the Cross looking at you waiting a return of your love.
AD MAJOREM DEI GLORIAM
ARLEINGH
Arleingh,
Thank you for all your thoughtful words, I have learned many things from you. I wish you all the best.
Bill
Bill
You are very much welcome! Every life in this world is but a spark compared to eternity. The veil that is covering our understanding of all the Truth will be revealed to us when our time is at hand. Did you not notice that it is only the Catholic Church that attest to the Truth? Yes my friend even unto blood! The Martyrs are the seeds of the Catholic Church because they would rather die than to renounce the Truth of the Catholic Faith. And it is through this Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (The Latin Tridentine Mass) that these martyrs and saints were made.
“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom”
Jesus Christ said “I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by Me.” Have recourse to Our Lord’s Blessed Mother, She will guide you in finding Him.
Please try to see the website I’ve mentioned before, it’s only just a click of the mouse.
God bless!
AD MAJOREM DEI GLORIAM
Arleingh
Arleigh,
It is funny how you believe what you want and you expect everyone else to believe it also. Remember the Bible says that it is the small persicuted church that will overcome in the end. Not the big universal, powerful church. You can go on believing what you believe. You are brainwashed to the highest degree. Salvation is a personal thing, it always has been and it always will be. No church can garrantee your salvation. All “Catholics” will not go to “heaven” just because they are Catholics. All “Protestants” will not go to “heaven” because they are Protestants. We will be saved on our own merrits. God will judge us individually. I know talking to you is like talking to a brick wall but you know that you are suffering and when you finally realize that you can be free from the bondage of religion then you will “come out of her” and be free.
Dee,
To wander off topic…If you have time, I was wondering what your views on evolution are? I know that I have too much too say on the subject but I did not want to just blurt it all out suddenly, Besides, I think we have beat this horse enough.
Bill
Dee
You are at Lost! Your ideas are conflicting. Your undestanding is like a ship with no anchor that the waves tumbles it to any direction. Your “Pride” is clouding your intellect that simple phrases of faith you don’t want to acknowledge. I never expected anyone to believe what the Catholic Church has always taught but “Charity” forces the Faith to preach the Truth. Only the “Grace” of God can give enlightenment to anyone with a “humble” and contrite heart to understand the simplicity of God’s redemptive plan that was accomplished by the Son of God, Our Lord Jesus Christ. Yes I will go on believing what I believe! But what about you? What do you believe? Can you give me the “specifics” of what you believe? Can you support it with tangible means? Yes I might be a brick wall but with a “foundation.” Your “belief” is purely “sentimental reasons” with no tangible and philosophical support.
You said “by our own merits” we will be saved. Whoever taught you that our “imperfection” can “satisfy” the Divine Justice and “Infinite” Perfection of God? Or maybe it was just only your “feelings” am I right? Yes! God will judge us individually! And I pray that when I will face the “Terrible Judgement of God”, Our Blessed Lady will help me appease the Infinite Justice of God.
People nowadays only claims that God is Love and Mercy. Yes it is true! But God is also Justice! And God will take account of every thought, word and deed that we have done.
You said “You are brainwashed to the highest degree.” No one strapped me in a operating table and put different electronic gadgets in my head or any other form of “brainwashing.” It was I who seek for the Truth and found it, and loving it, nurturing and cultivating it.
This next statement is the worst! You said “Salvation is a personal thing, it always has been and it always will be. No church can garrantee your salvation” What is your understading of “Salvation?” Is it purely material salvation from poverty or to any other form of human deficiencies? Can you give the history of your knowledge of your so-called “personal thing of salvation?” Or again, is it just another “personal feelings?” As I’ve said before that Thank God! my understanding is not confined to a Naturalistic point of view. Our humanity is composed of two entities. The flesh and the “Soul” This soul is why Our Lord Jesus Christ suffered the Death of the Cross. To save our souls from being dammned into the eternal fires of Hell. Jesus Christ being God-Man satisfies the Divine Justice thru His sufferings and death. And this sufferings and death is repeated everytime, in an unbloody manner, by the celebration of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, The Latin Tridentine Mass! And it is “only” the Roman Catholic Church that has that “Treasure.”
What is your notion of freedom? Freedom from Guilt, Conscience or Remorse? Indeed, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak!
You’ve said “Remember the Bible says that it is the small persicuted church that will overcome in the end. Not the big universal, powerful church.” and another “but you know that you are suffering and when you finally realize that you can be free from the bondage of religion then you will “come out of her” and be free.”
I know that those statements are addressed to me but I cannot comprehend the logic of those two statements. Conflicting isn’t it?
In the Bible it is also written, that those who refuse to believe, “let him be anathema.” and “let him be with the reprobate.”
“My God! I Believe, I Adore, I Hope, I Trust and I Love Thee. I beg pardon for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope, do not trust and do not love Thee.” (Prayer of the three children of Fatima that was taught by an Angel)
AD MAJOREM DEI GLORIAM
Arleingh
Dee,
Nevermind my request above. Thanks for the kind words. May God bless your every step and peace be with you always.
Bill
Arleigh,
You are filled with HOT air. Save your Catholic dogma for someone who cares!
Dee
Dee
To defend the Truth is with the zeal of fire!
The enemy is not of the flesh but of the Principalities and Powers… God cannot compromise with false doctrines.
O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.
AD MAJOREM DEI GLORIAM
(All for the glory of God)
Arleingh
OUR SALVATION IS THROUGH JESUS CHRIST ONLY. HE IS THE WAY . OUR CHURCES ANY DENOMATON ISNT GOING TO GET US ANYWHERE , JUST THE MAIN CHURCH , GODS PEOPLE , THATS THROUGH HIS SON JESUS .
I DO HOPE THAT THE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS THAT HAS BEEN MADE FROM THE MOVIE OF HIS , I SAY HIS SUFFERING SHOULD BE GIVEN AS JESUS WOULD DO NOW . SO , LETS JUST WATCH WHAT MEL AND OTHERS DO WITH OUR LORDS MONEY , ISNT IT HIS ANYWAY ?. HOW MANY HOMELESS . SICK . ELDERLEY PEOPLE COULD USE JUST SAY 100.00 FOR MEDICATION EACH MOUNTH . MAYBE SOME FOOD TOO. GOD WILL HAVE HIS DAY AND HIS JUDJEMENT WILL BE FAIR TO ALL . CORRECT . GOD BLESS TRUE FOLLERS OF JESUS OUR LORD. AMEN .
Amen Marie!
Praise God, Alleluhjah!
Dee
Ladies & Gentlemen:
If you think that you will be save by just accepting that Jesus Christ is your personal savior, or if you think that by “faith alone in each of his outburst of feelings,” you will be save, THINK AGAIN… These understandings are the Heresies of Protestants.
Why do you harden your hearts?
Did not Jesus Christ “Himself” establishes “His Church” upon Peter?
Did not Jesus Christ “Himself” “Commanded His Apostles” to “preach” to the whole world the Gospel “Baptizing them in the Name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”?
WHO established the Roman Catholic Church”?
Did not Jesus Christ “sent” the Holy Ghost to “guide” the apostles and disciples of Jesus Christ in “preaching” and to propound “His Gospel” so that it will be “FREE” from error?
The “Roman Catholic Church” IS the “Church of Jesus Christ” wherein He commanded His Apostles and its Successors to “PREACH, CONVERT, PROPAGATE, and DISPENSE the GRACES OF HIS REDEMPTIVE ACT ON THE CROSS THRU THE SACRIFICE OF THE HOLY MASS AND THE SACRAMENTS.” For US to “MERIT” Heaven and for the “SANCTIFICATION” of our Souls.
If because of “Pride” that many of you DON’T WANT TO ACCEPT THE TRUTH, BEWARE!
Because Jesus Christ also commanded His Apostles that “What you shall BIND, it will also be bind in heaven, and what you shall LOOSE, it shall be also be loose in heaven.”
Where will be your soul then? “AND THEY WILL BE CAST INTO ETERNAL FIRE WHERE THERE WILL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH!”
Whatever Technological, Ideological and Modern advancements of Man, the TRUTH will always be the truth!
OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST’S GOSPEL CANNOT COMPROMISE OR LEVEL EQUALLY WITH THE ERRORS OF MAN… Because of the Sins of our First Parents, our FALLEN NATURE and the Seduction of the Devil inclines Man to evil.
May God have mercy on your souls…
AD MAJOREM DEI GLORIAM
Arleingh
The following statements establishes Two (2) Questions:
OUR SALVATION IS THROUGH JESUS CHRIST ONLY. HE IS THE WAY . OUR CHURCES ANY DENOMATON ISNT GOING TO GET US ANYWHERE , JUST THE MAIN CHURCH , GODS PEOPLE , THATS THROUGH HIS SON JESUS.
“HOW AND WHAT SPECIFIC FORM?”
Arleingh
John Stein
There’s nothing “clear” in all you’ve stated, only HATRED and ANGER… By mere using the word “supposedly,” you know nothing about God’s Love for you. Be careful! The Devil exists! And he’s playing in your heart and mind.
Arleingh
The liberty of blasphemy has been diversely named. Like Satan, who is its father, the world is naturally and inevitably a liar. If it were obliged to speak clearly and to call things by their true name, it would be struck with impotence and with death: the truth kills it, and light is deadly to it. Lies, darkness, equivocations are necessary for it to live: lies and equivocations in actions, lies and equivocations in speech.
This godless liberty has therefore called itself liberty of conscience, religious liberty, liberty of thought, liberty of the press; but, in fact and truly in right, it was the liberty of blasphemy. It has been amply used and we do not know if, since the origin of the world, we have blasphemed more. There has been learned blasphemy and ignorant blasphemy, jeering blasphemy and serious blasphemy, polite blasphemy and cynical blasphemy, peaceful blasphemy and passionate blasphemy: plenam nominibus blasphemiæ
“At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child – miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill disciplined, despotic, and useless. Liberalism is the philosophy of sniveling brats.”
– P.J. O’Rourke
WOE TO THOSE WHO BLASPHEME THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST….
John Stein:
“God, [said the great Doctor], wants to be loved by us: not that God derives for Himself any fruit from our love; but this love much rather will profit us, we who will love Him”: Amari se a nobis exigit: non utique amoris in se nostri fructum aliquem sui causa percipiens, sed amore ipso nobis potius, qui eum amabimus, profuturo.
“The pouring out of the divine goodness, like the radiance of the sun, like the heat of fire, like the fragrance of a plant, is not useful to the one from whom it comes, but to the one who uses it”: Bonitatis autem usus, ut splendor solis, ut lumen ignis, ut odor sued, non prcebenti proficit, sed utenti. (St. Hilary)
Arleingh
Arleigh,
When are you going to leave this site. I’m so sick of your Catholic google babble. Set us free, Pleese! and leave our site. You are boring us all to tears.
Arleingh,
I thought I could leave this site and just let you be. But I have trouble listening to all the belligerent things you say. The net effect of all your words has been to alienate, offend, and put Catholics in an embarrassing light. Is this what you intended?
It is good to have strong opinions and personal convictions, but do not think that it bestows upon you the right to attack others.
You have a view of the world that you think is special and you believe that you are protected on all sides within a tough, venerable, religious fortress, but remember it is still a one person, one vote world. Your opinions do not change the nature or outcome of others religious beliefs as much as they reflect what you are truly made off.
Life is like a mirror. If we love what we see, we smile and are pleasant. If we hate what we see, we attack like an animal and are generally disagreeable. Does your version of Catholicism teach “hate thy brother and sister?”
As I have said already, it is not the words and religious beliefs we hold that matter (although many will disagree!), it is what emanates from the heart that determines our worth.
Peace,
Bill
The Passion of The Christ has many bible-based truths in it. However, the viewer is also forced to recognize the Catholic interpretation of the events of Jesus’ last 12 hours. Mainly, Mel Gibson uses the visions by Anne Catherine Emmerich (a Catholic Saint) to fill in the gaps and provide the viewer with the “missing details.” This movie is forcing Catholisism onto the public instead of biblical truths and I cannot believe so many “christians” are accepting this film as “truth” when it is largely based on non-biblical information (the visions of Anne Catherine Emmerich). I would encourage all Christians to do their research and be very careful to accept this film as bibilical truth. Read your bible and accept only the information written within as the ONLY inspired word of God. Remember: “I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book.” Revelation 22:18
Friends
My dialogue is not of my own creation. It is what the Catholic Church has “always taught” that was given the teaching authority by God Himself. A dialogue is not “owned” by anyone of us.
“””As I have said already, it is not the words and religious beliefs we hold that matter (although many will disagree!), it is what emanates from the heart that determines our worth.”””
Non-Catholics have a flawed understanding of Free Will, Original Sin and Grace even though many have good intentions.
Modern Man, through pride and ignorance, likes to “imagine” that he “knows” how to worship God and needs “no authority” to tell him otherwise. This is SUBJECTIVISM! Man therefore becomes god who maps out his own religion. This is why today we see so many religious denominations. God however teaches quite the contrary.
“””It is good to have strong opinions and personal convictions, but do not think that it bestows upon you the right to attack others.”””
Then what do you call to this kind of statements?
“””Ok first of all, just to get things clear Jesus was a funky little Jewish Rabbi…Gentiles steal it like bunch of brainless parasites and then reinvent it, rewrite it and blame the jews in the end, Truly pathetic”””
Are these statements fitting for a GOD? But then again, it is me accused of an attack…
For it is written: “…my name is great among the “Gentiles [non Hebrews], and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation…” (Malachias 1:11)
IN THE OLD TESTAMENT:
GOD’S PLAN (After the fall of man)
To send a Redeemer who would be God Himself (Jesus Christ)
ONE CHURCH
God sets up one church and reveales Himself to His chosen people (Hebrews)
God teaches His people (Hebrews) “HOW” to worship Him.
God Knows how to give glory to God.
(Is is proper for Him to tell us “How” to worship Himself – NOT THE CONTRARY)
IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
ONE CHURCH
Jesus Christ sets up “one church” appointing His apostles as its leaders (Mt. 16:18)
ONE SACRIFICE
(Christ – Priest and Victim)
ONE PRIESTHOOD AND THE “CONTINUATION” OF THE SAME SACRIFICE
In the Sacrifice of the Mass (Traditional Latin Mass): GOD (Christ as Priest) OFFERS GOD (Christ as Victim) TO GOD (as Godhead).
GOD’S PLAN (fulfilled)
The gates of Heaven are now re-opened to those who follow Christ and His Catholic Church which HE established. The fountains of Sanctifying grace are available through this same Church in which God has placed His guarantee. (Mt. 28:20, 18:17-18; 16:19; Lk. 10:16)
The Devil cannot bear the truth of the Word of God and His teachings!
I leave you in your stiffed-necked pride.
May God have mercy on your souls!
AD MAJOREM DEI GLORIAM
Arleingh
Arleingh,
“Modern Man, through pride and ignorance, likes to “imagine” that he “knows” how to worship God and needs “no authority” to tell him otherwise. This is SUBJECTIVISM! Man therefore becomes god who maps out his own religion. This is why today we see so many religious denominations. God however teaches quite the contrary.”
Again you are posting your personal opinions, of equal worth, of equal value with any others, no more or less. You cannot conceive of truths outside of the stories that have been repeated to you for so long. There are those of us, however, that have striven to remain free, strong, and alert to the quiet voice of the spirit.
You have forgotten or were never given a chance to see, that the spirit and the flesh, are like oil and water, difficult to mix. That God perspective sees us as one with no iniquity, and we see ourselves as many with sin( i.e. …”May God have mercy on your souls!”…) You would have me believe that I AM with sin, when God (nameless and divine) sees me as sinless and perfect.
The intents and purposes of the spirit cannot be written or spoken. There is no spiritual authority in earth, except as from the Father, through the Holy Spirit. Pontifications are bold and unveiled idolatry, excessive attachments to human precepts. The things of God remain hidden until you speak with the voice of Christ, which cannot be heard in this world.
You cannot speak to me of what is, or leads to, salvation, because your earthly voice has not the authority of Christ, though Christ is in you.
Peace,
Bill
Indeed… The Word of God is not given to the wise but to the humble of heart.
You said:
“””You cannot speak to me of what is, or leads to, salvation, because your earthly voice has not the authority of Christ, though Christ is in you.”””
But this is what I said:
“””My dialogue is not of my own creation. It is what the Catholic Church has “always taught” that was given the teaching authority by God Himself.”””
Could you not see your imperfection? When you claim….
“You would have me believe that I AM with sin, when God (nameless and divine) “””sees me as sinless and perfect.”””
but then, here is a proof of your imperfection:
“””There are those of us, however, that have striven to remain free, strong, and alert to the quiet voice of the spirit.
VS
The intents and purposes of the spirit cannot be written or spoken. There is no spiritual authority in earth, except as from the Father, through the Holy Spirit.”””
You disclaim and then you claim. Very conflicting.
I NEVER TOOK A POSITION OF ME BEING PERFECT. I understood the expiatory nature of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. To sanctify my soul, to cleanse me from the “stains” of the Original Sin, and also the unfortunate consequences of committing Venial and Mortal Sins.
Take a good look at children and ask yourself why they can lie, cheat, and be cruel. They were not taught this, they were born with this tendency, as a consequence of Original Sin. But then you presume that in the eyes of God, you are sinless and perfect.
Jesus Christ made some very powerful statements when He was on earth. Such as:
“HE THAT BELIEVETH AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED: BUT HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT SHALL BE CONDEMNED.” (Mark 16:16)
Such a statement must be examined. What is it that we are to believe? Is it just that Christ is our personal savior? Is it more than that? A lot more? Who is to say?
Every good leader leaves behind a successor with the authority to rule and guide in his place, otherwise he would be neglectful of his duty. Did Christ leave any authority on earth to rule and legislate and to tell us what we are to believe? It is clear from Sacred Scripture that Christ founded a church with the apostles as His leaders having His authority and power. They, in turn, passed this power to their successors. (Eph. 2:20, 4:11; 1 Tim. 3:1,8)
St. Augustine (392 AD):
“The Catholic Church is the work of Divine Providence, achieved through the prophecies of the prophets, through the Incarnation of the teaching of Christ, through the journeys of the Apostles, through the suffering, the crosses, the blood and death of the martyrs, through the admirable lives of the saints… When, then, we see so much help of God’s part, so much progress and so much fruit, shall we hesitate to bury ourselves in the bosom of the Church? For starting from the apostolic chair (of Peter) down through successions of bishops, even unto the open confession of all mankind, it has possessed the crown of “teaching authority.” (The Advantages of Believing, 35)
“””when God (nameless and divine) sees me as sinless and perfect”””
Nameless and divine? Who then is your God?
Arleingh
in the movie who is the guy following jesus around wearing all black? is that lucifer?
please emai l me a response
Arleingh
You state:
“My dialogue is not of my own creation. It is what the Catholic Church has “always taught” that was given the teaching authority by God Himself. A dialogue is not “owned” by anyone of us.”
That is the balance of the error you make.
Your mistake is the mistake of all Catholics and Christian sects. It is the belief that Jesus is fundamentally different than you. Christianity is afraid of confronting the fact that we are divine beings right here and now, in the spirit. Christians put off into a non-existent future, the confrontation with their divine nature. Under Christian dogma, there will never be a generation that is holy where they stand, right now. Worse than that, Christianity bases all of the rationale for “sin” on some past that does not exist. There is only now, you must deal with it. Your common sense of time fails you.
Christianity is a bitter trap that has bound generation after generation ( actually about 67 generations ) in a dark human dogma. There is no divinity in a book or a word. Uninspired (not breathed directly into you by spirit) words will fail you always.
If you teach a child they are evil, they will do evil. If you teach a child that they cannot reach heaven until they die, they will do evil until the day they die. Christianity has squandered 16 centuries on false interpretation of the teachings of Jesus, by teaching its members that they are fundamentally flawed, and must be fixed at a time that will never come.
You have looked in the mirror at the flesh, and mistook your human reflection as the Christ. Perhaps you condemn children because you think they are so different than you. They are identical to you, even of the same spiritual flesh. To condemn a child is to condemn yourself. That is holy truth, not from a book.
Peace,
Bill
Bill
From the very words of your statements reveal that you have no God but only yourself. You hide under the cloak of your false and limited intellect and declare statements that complement to your ‘own” desire and wishes, and defies the very purpose of God being made man to redeem man.
You state: “””Christianity is a bitter trap that has bound generation after generation ( actually about 67 generations ) in a dark human dogma. There is no divinity in a book or a word. Uninspired (not breathed directly into you by spirit) words will fail you always.”””
My answer: http://sspx.ca/Angelus/2002_January/The_Cristeros.htm
You state: “””If you teach a child they are evil, they will do evil. If you teach a child that they cannot reach heaven until they die, they will do evil until the day they die…Perhaps you condemn children because you think they are so different than you. They are identical to you, even of the same spiritual flesh. To condemn a child is to condemn yourself.”””
But what I’ve stated is very elementary: “””Take a good look at children and ask yourself why they can lie, cheat, and be cruel. They were not taught this, they were born with this tendency, as a consequence of Original Sin.”””
How in the world did you think that I condemn and making myself different from them? Can you not comprehend “simple” truth of life?
Unless you humble you heart you will not understand God’s Love which is ONLY through His Son Jesus Christ and His Church.
A day will come when each of us will stand in the Tribunal of God and we will hear the terrible judgement. I pray that both of us will be save.
AD MAJOREM DEI GLORIAM
Arleingh
Arleingh,
You state:
“My answer: http://sspx.ca/Angelus/2002_January/The_Cristeros.htm”
These people were obviously deprived of religious and secular freedoms by despotic governments. I would not deny them freedom, only religious and secular dominance. Every religion serves many purposes, but they must individually be allowed only limited reign, however much each religion believes itself to be the “true and righteous” religion.
The difficulty from your passionate perspective is that you cannot see the forest for the trees. Regardless of what I say, your response contains information only from within the limited confines of your Catholic viewpoint. That is not bad, in fact focused viewpoints are essential for maintaining the truths and rules of a specific system of dogma.
Be advised though that there are other equally valid systems of thought to Catholicism, and these other systems of human behavior contribute just as much to the moral fiber of this planet.
One of the benefits of Catholicism is that it is a cradle-to-grave belief system. For many, many people it is a very appropriate religion. But Hinduism, Protestantism, Unitarianism are also appropriate similarly. And they each have passionate advocates like you.
You state:
How in the world did you think that I condemn and making myself different from them? Can you not comprehend “simple” truth of life?
I think that a child is condemned when he/she is thought to have harmful qualities that may never actually manifest. Similarly she is condemned when she is not allowed to blossom to the fullest of her extent. This is perhaps the worse error. Why do Catholics children spend so much time learning the Catholic way of life? It is so that a proper young Catholic will develop. Children do not start as evil, they start as intelligent and innocent and adaptable. Evil comes later.
What you call “Original Sin” are simply evolutionary traits we have developed along with the animals over many millions of years. Without them you and I would not be talking. And yes they must be tamed to make a good person.
There are many levels of truth which may be told. Many of these truths will be incomprehensible.
Peace,
Bill
Bill
You state: “The difficulty from your passionate perspective is that you cannot see the forest for the trees. Regardless of what I say, your response contains information only from within the limited confines of your Catholic viewpoint. That is not bad, in fact focused viewpoints are essential for maintaining the truths and rules of a specific system of dogma.”
I see very clearly your sense of belief, your understanding and your use of your intellect on our dialogue. The difficulty here is that you do not believe the faith that Jesus Christ has deposited and given charge of teaching and authority to His Church, the Roman Catholic Church as the One True Religion that GOD HIMSELF ESTABLISHED. Indeed there are many religion since the beginning of mankind and you yourself consider the Catholic religion is just as good and “equal” to other religion. This modern liberal protestant ideology is called ecumenism in which God is levelled with man.
Again do you really think that my statement… “””Take a good look at children and ask yourself why they can lie, cheat, and be cruel. They were not taught this, they were born with this tendency, as a consequence of Original Sin.”””
…is a comdemnation? What are you insinuating? I’m very proud to inform you that I’m a father of three (3) beautiful children ages 3, 2, and 9 months. At the tender age of my eldest son, he already manifests signs and action of cruelty to his younger sister without us his parents teaching him, and yet, he knows how to hurt his younger sister. Now, do these statements condem the children by their own father?
But then you think and state: “Children do not start as evil, they start as intelligent and innocent and adaptable. Evil comes later…And yes they must be tamed to make a good person.”
I don’t quite understand the equivocations and logic of what you say about children. And when you state that you “think” a child is condemned by a thought that a child has done something bad or evil.
And coming in to Original Sin, one of the dogmas of faith, no explanation is possible because you yourself have lowered your intellect as “simply evolutionary traits we have developed along with the animals over many millions of years.”
I’m truly sad because the grace of God is knocking at the door of your heart but the haughtiness of your mind doesn’t want to open it.
Going back to my previous statements :
Jesus Christ made some very powerful statements when He was on earth. Such as:
“HE THAT BELIEVETH AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED: BUT HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT SHALL BE CONDEMNED.” (Mark 16:16)
Such a statement must be examined. What is it that we are to believe? Is it just that Christ is our personal savior? Is it more than that? A lot more? Who is to say?
Every good leader leaves behind a successor with the authority to rule and guide in his place, otherwise he would be neglectful of his duty. Did Christ leave any authority on earth to rule and legislate and to tell us what we are to believe? It is clear from Sacred Scripture that Christ founded a church with the apostles as His leaders having His authority and power. They, in turn, passed this power to their successors. (Eph. 2:20, 4:11; 1 Tim. 3:1,8)
I BELIEVE THAT JESUS CHRIST IS MY LORD AND MY GOD. I BELIEVE HIS TEACHINGS AND HIS CHURCH.
What about you Bill, what do you believe?
a nameless and divine entity?
Can you give me the specifics of what you believe?
OR… You believe in yourself that you have THE POWER within you to control the very destiny of your life.
OR… You are just a product of a cosmic catastrophe which evolutionizes to what you are now.
Truly sad. very, very sad.
Indeed…the Word of God is not given to the wise but to the HUMBLE OF HEART.
AD MAJOREM DEI GLORIAM
Arleingh
Arleingh,
You are a very mean person and it shows in your conversation with Bill. I am not surprised that you are a Catholic because Catholics have a nack for spewing out hateful words like; inquisition, heretic, purgatory and so on. It is clear that you have NO love in your heart for your fellow man. You are not a good example for your religion. If Mother Theresa was as nasty as you are then everyone would have hated her instead of loving and respecting her. You belong right up there with all the other misdirected hateful Catholics who have given your religion a bad name. Shame on you for being so self righteous. You don’t have love and thats what it’s all about because God is Love. As a matter of fact you sound more like a witch than a fellow believer in Christ. If you hadn’t said you were a father of three I would’ve thought you were a witch. But I guess you could be a male witch. Do you consider yourself humble? If so you need to look up the word humble in the dictionary. I don’t come to this site much because you make me sick to my stomach.
Dee
I’m not surprised that you’ve lost your senses. Jesus Christ was condemned to death when asked whether He was the Son of God and He answered in the affirmative.
I do not claim to be self-righteous nor to be a perfect example of my Catholic faith because I am also imperfect and prone to commit sin.
Why are you mad? I proclaim my belief in Jesus Christ “not just” because He established His Church but because “I BELIEVE HE IS MY LORD AND MY GOD AND HIS TEACHING THROUGH HIS APPOINTED APOSTLES AND THEIR SUCCESSORS!” And consequently, I impart their teaching from what I’ve learned in my catechism.
Tell me! Do these statements explain that I don’t have any LOVE for my Brethren?
“””A day will come when each of us will stand in the Tribunal of God and we will hear the terrible judgement. I pray that both of us will be save.”””
I posted these statements just last 28 March 2004.
It is if that you’ve already forgotten our dialogue before when I said:
“””People nowadays only claims that God is Love and Mercy. Yes it is true! But God is also Justice! And God will take account of every thought, word and deed that we have done.”””
I guess I’m right… You only believe that God is Love. Just love with no definite core of belief.
As I’ve said before, the knowlege that I impart is not of my own creation. IT WAS AND ALWAYS the teaching of Jesus Christ THROUGH HIS CHURCH!
And now vile words came out of you because I BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST AND HIS TEACHING THROUGH HIS APPOINTED APOSTLES AND THEIR SUCCESSORS?
When our days is at hand and face the Tribunal of God, there are only two (2) judgements that we will hear:
“Come blessed of my father into eternal bliss…”
AND
“Depart from me you acursed one into eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels…”
ME, BILL, YOU and EVERYBODY in this world will one day stand face to face in the judgement seat of God. And, I pray the we will hear the FIRST beautiful sentence.
Did I made any devilish incantations that you accused me of being a witch?
Coming in to terms in the dictionary, can you not understand those words that make you sick in your stomach? How is it that I’m an asian and yet I understood clearly those words?
I’m not making any shortcuts nor I wayward in speaking for the truth because Jesus Christ’s teaching propagated by His apostles and their successors IS AND ALWAYS the Truth. The ONLY religion of God established here on earth by GOD HIMSELF to be the True Religion which is the teaching of Jesus Christ, THE SON OF GOD.
You asked me if I’m humble…Why? Does my statements humbly reprimands your arrogant pride? And even accusing the Faith established by Jesus Christ to have a nack for spewing out hateful words? Humility is a virtue contrary to pride.
I have asked questions before in our dialogue but none of you and Bill seems to answer me directly.
Again: I BELIEVE THAT JESUS CHRIST IS MY LORD AND MY GOD. I BELIEVE HIS TEACHINGS THROUGH HIS APOSTLES AND THEIR SUCCESSORS IN HIS CHURCH.
What about you what do you believe?
CHRISTUS VINCI, CHRISTUS REIGNAT, CHRISTUS IMPERAT!
Arleingh
Arleingh,
You state:
“What about you Bill, what do you believe? “
I have responded to this already, the words of God cannot be written on paper, or heard with ears. What we see with our eyes and think with our brain will pass away. But we are more than the flesh and will not perish.
“a nameless and divine entity?”
Nameless and divine, certainly. An entity, I do not know. Is it not obvious that to see, to hear, to smell, to feel, that all of these fade away, and none are divine? They are part of the vast creation, that for a while we dream, and then we awaken, perhaps to dream again.
“Can you give me the specifics of what you believe?”
To state specifics about the divine is idolatry, an old form of worship that is fading away. I can only say that I believe, but not more than that.
“OR… You believe in yourself that you have THE POWER within you to control the very destiny of your life.”
Although the image of God, the spark, is within you and me, only as we are recalled to the Father/Mother, is the power of God to be found. We are only a passing dream in the flesh, but immortal in spirit. By ourselves we have no power, just a weak dream life, similar to sleeping dreams.
“OR… You are just a product of a cosmic catastrophe which evolutionizes to what you are now.”
Like you, I Am not a product of anything, I have always been, and will never die. The body I inhabit, however, is the product of millions of years of evolution. It contains the surviving traits of that evolution. On-going evolution is simply a small part of the vast creation, as is the continuing life and death of stars, black holes, galaxies… The body will die, I will not. The power of God is found within my children and wife, It will live on after the bodies die.
“Truly sad. very, very sad.”
Sadness and happiness also pass away. The depth of the divine is beyond human emotions. What that means, cannot be written, and will confound any who try.
“Indeed…the Word of God is not given to the wise but to the HUMBLE OF HEART.”
I agree, because humility is to actually let go and listen, and let God re-inhabit the dream. Humility seems very difficult. I have always had trouble with it.
The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.
The unnameable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.
Free from desire,
you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire,
you see only the manifestations.
Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.
Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding.
tao te ching – lao-tse
The word “darkness” here refers to the Supreme God, unknowable in any way to the dream, and hence a darkness, as in lack of any knowledge.
Peace,
Bill
Dee,
You remind me that I should re-read the Bhagavad Gita. It is a Hindu book about the relationship between Krishna and Arjuna ( similar in relationship to Jesus and Christians). It is a story about the trials of Arjuna in battles and of his true nature which remains untouched. I have almost forgotten all of it.
Peace,
Bill
Bill
Just as I suspect. You are a Freethinker. Your mind is permeated with diabolical thoughts in the likes of Hari Krishna, New Age Religion, Hinduism and other norms of human religion. Why diabolical? Because these forms of belief are founded by non other than Lucifer himself for the sole purpose of deceiving mankind and to turn away the object of man’s thoughts and beliefs from the simple and yet Infinitely Great Religion of God. If you’ll observe that since before Jesus Christ’s teaching was spread all over the world by the apostles, there were already different sets of religious belief concerning God as the Almighty that is “evolving” up to now. But these beliefs are only within the comprehension of man. That is to say, man’s limited understanding on his environment, his social awareness, his cravings for power, wealth, lust, etc., all of which are suffice to say as the concupiscence of the flesh. This inclination of man to look for a God is the very effect of the spirit or soul in each and every man. Because, that is the very purpose for which God created the soul and the only reason why God became Man. That is, to save our souls and to be with Him happily for eternity. But the devil is tirelessly doing his best in deceiving and seducing mankind so as not to benefit from the Religion of God.
You state:
“We are only a passing dream in the flesh, but immortal in spirit. By ourselves we have no power, just a weak dream life, similar to sleeping dreams.”
“Like you, I Am not a product of anything, I have always been, and will never die. The body I inhabit, however, is the product of millions of years of evolution. It contains the surviving traits of that evolution. On-going evolution is simply a small part of the vast creation, as is the continuing life and death of stars, black holes, galaxies… The body will die, I will not. The power of God is found within my children and wife, It will live on after the bodies die.”
If you will notice from these statements, you won’t find any underlying principle concerning the immortality of the soul and its obvious origin and how the soul existed from the very beginning. Logic tells us that Life must necessarily exist. This means that a being to exist should have an origin to where it came from . It is not so much to say that “the body will die, I will not.” But where will I be after my soul separated from my body? Where will our Soul be? Are we content to say that we just continue to exist for no more other reason and purpose at all after we have died? Is it logically correct to think that if we die, our souls also will be in a state of “on-going evolution”? Have you ever thought that your belief that life is just a passing dream contradicts the very idea of immortality of the soul? If our soul is immortal, how is it that you can compare it “as is the continuing life and death of stars, black holes, galaxies, etc.,?” Is our soul after it separated from the body, will just “blend in” with its surroundings? What does a soul sees that a live body cannot see? Where is the perfection within you if think that you soul is but a dream? Never ending question arises much like the question of what came first, the chicken or the egg.
If you will observe again that your notion of the soul do not have any goal to why it was created, why our soul is immortal. What is after “The bodies will die, I will not?” What is the “beyond?” Is it just a sort of “animated suspension?” Again, questions arise…
But then, there is this “voice crying out in the wilderness” COMMANDING that “I AM THE LORD THY GOD, THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GODS BUT ME,” teaching us “Blessed are the Poor in Spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of God,” gave us a promise and warning “HE THAT BELIEVETH AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED: BUT HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT SHALL BE CONDEMNED.”
If you will observe, by what authority does this voice crying out in the wilderness HAVE? I can give a definite and objective answer and, say, even the “specifics” (Thesaurus defines “specific” as particulars, details, information, the whole story, data…”I don’t see any tendency for idolatry”) as compared with your statement of “To state specifics about the divine is idolatry, an old form of worship that is fading away. I can only say that I believe, but not more than that.” Whew! Too deep. Pardon me but its like playing basketball, you believe that you can shoot the ball in the ring but when you threw the ball, it stops in the air between the ring and you, not knowing whether the ball will go through the ring or not.
“An old form of worship that is fading away.” Therefore you believe in the New Age Religion which has neither have any form, objectivity, purpose, reason for the soul to continue to exist because it subsists to nothing. Just a passing dream. It’s a sad ending… But wait! Perhaps you might dream again. What a nightmare.
“Sadness and happiness also pass away. The depth of the divine is beyond human emotions. What that means, cannot be written, and will confound any who try.” Is sadness and happiness, a particular function of the body? Who, What and How a person will be confounded if he/she defies “what” order or commandment from your nameless and divine? My friend I know that you have a sane mind but don’t you think that you’re serving a god that is deceiving and leading you astray to the One True God?
“Like you, I Am not a product of anything, I have always been, and will never die. The body I inhabit, however, is the product of millions of years of evolution. It contains the surviving traits of that evolution. On-going evolution is simply a small part of the vast creation, as is the continuing life and death of stars, black holes, galaxies…
“I have always been, and will never die. The body I inhabit..” Are you an Absolute Being that has the power to put life on a body? “The bodies will die. I will not.” Why would you choose to inhabit a body if you think that it will one day die? Can you not understand that your notion of belief drastically degrades the very dignity of man by just considering the body as a product of million years of evolution? Much like an animal or an insect. If however, you are a product of evolution, the genes of your ancestor would certainly appear in your physical appearance or in your behavior. Science agrees with that theory. If again however, we evolve as what you have said, then, therefore by now, the Scientists of the world will pass it in the United Nations and will show proof of that theory. So that the UN, being the representative body of the whole world, can proclaim and declare that “theory” to be the origin of man. But thank God, there are still many sane people in this world.
I guess common sense and logic will not make me a cripple and our other friend will somehow be pacified because I did not rephrase any catholic doctrine for this reply.
Oh one more thing, if the word of gods cannot be written or heard by ears, do you consider yourself as god? Because if not, then you might have “heard or read” your doctrine (“…THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GODS…”). Or if yes, you don’t need to use the phrases from “tao te ching-lao-tse.” [Do not use the thoughts of others as a crutch, you are not a cripple. (Posted by: Bill on March 11, 2004 02:10 AM)]
Arleingh
Arleingh,
You are so spirited, you are like a young horse who tries to run fast and trips on his legs, going splat on the ground!
You state:
“. This inclination of man to look for a God is the very effect of the spirit or soul in each and every man. Because, that is the very purpose for which God created the soul and the only reason why God became Man.”
You assume to know the mind of God, interesting. You assume or have been told (over and over, a cult training method, forgive me) that God became Man. You try to place the holy where it cannot be, inside the flesh and on a piece of paper, where you can read about it (over and over). Do not so confuse Jesus with Christ. Of Christ there is no writing that can be relied on.
You state:
“But the devil is tirelessly doing his best in deceiving and seducing mankind so as not to benefit from the Religion of God.”
You are the living power of God, if you perceive the Devil, then you have created him from the power you draw from your divinity. By the same power you should exorcize yourself.
You state:
“If you will notice from these statements, you won’t find any underlying principle concerning the immortality of the soul and its obvious origin and how the soul existed from the very beginning. Logic tells us that Life must necessarily exist. This means that a being to exist should have an origin to where it came from .”
Logic from false premises, leads to false conclusions. You assume that all things must have an origin. This assumption must come from an earthly perspective, as all things do “appear” to have an origin in our daily experience. But this is only perception, and is not necessarily true. Now, in the world of spirit, we can say little or nothing of origins, from the perspective of flesh. It is like asking a fish to explain the aerodynamic principles of a bird, or even of astrophysics. Not likely. But people will certainly try because of some perverse cerebral vanity. You seem to want to explain so many things you will never know. Life is simple animation of the flesh by the spirit, animation of a form co-evolved with spirit over untold eons. There have been no striking changes in this relationship in the last 25,000 years. Perhaps the last big change to mankind happened 50,000 years ago when we ventured off the African continent. Most likely, the portals of spirit in the flesh have improved significantly over this time. That would be about 2500 generations of evolution.
You state:
“But where will I be after my soul separated from my body? Where will our Soul be? Are we content to say that we just continue to exist for no more other reason and purpose at all after we have died?”
Where do you think you are right now? Heaven is here now. Hell is also, if you ask for it. You are not going anywhere different when you die, you simply will remove the veil that colours (or darkens) your vision. And you will remember your divinity. Lay aside religious vanity, and accept your simple divinity. Stop tangling your perception with some 2000 year old religious illusion. You reach outward too much, look to your angels, as it were.
You state:
“Is it logically correct to think that if we die, our souls also will be in a state of “on-going evolution”? Have you ever thought that your belief that life is just a passing dream contradicts the very idea of immortality of the soul? If our soul is immortal, how is it that you can compare it “as is the continuing life and death of stars, black holes, galaxies, etc.,?”
You seem to have really tangled up what I said. I wish I could speak in your native language. I do not begin to imagine that our divine nature is in any kind of evolution, but incontrovertible evidence supports the evolution of the human form. Human perception dies with brain death, soul perception does not. The soul is of the spirit, the body, stars, black holes, galaxies, etc, are not and will pass away.
You state:
“Is our soul after it separated from the body, will just “blend in” with its surroundings?”
The soul does not separate from the body, the illusion of body is realized by the soul at death. At death, the soul (Trinity) returns by degrees through Christ to the divine Source, the One, Nameless, Darkness…
You state:
“What does a soul sees that a live body cannot see?”
You got me, I do not know. The five flesh senses are in near complete control. The still small voice in me has way too much competition at the moment for me to answer, in my own perception, much less abstract into words onto a piece of paper.
You state:
“Where is the perfection within you if think that you soul is but a dream?”
I did not say the soul is a dream. I said the flesh is a dream. From the perspective of the soul, the flesh is a dream, a dream being directed by the holy dreamer.
You state:
“If you will observe again that your notion of the soul do not have any goal to why it was created, why our soul is immortal. What is after “The bodies will die, I will not?” What is the “beyond?” Is it just a sort of “animated suspension?” Again, questions arise…”
Too confused to comment except that you try to explain the purposes of divine intent for the soul, which you can never know. When you die, your brain concept will also die. The only record of your human concepts of the divine will be on written records, which are nearly useless for that purpose.
You quote:
““HE THAT BELIEVETH AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED: BUT HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT SHALL BE CONDEMNED.””
Let me discuss from KJV Bible:
“16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”
This baptism is by the Holy Spirit and by Fire. This is symbolized by the Star of David, a triangle pointing down symbolic of the descent of the Holy Spirit, and a triangle pointing up, symbolic of the Kundalini, the rising serpents of the spirit in man (not in flesh). These serpents are symbolized again as the two snakes on the staff of the Caduceus. In Christian scripture, this is the reference to “They shall take up serpents”
Few people believe and are baptized as was Jesus, so precious few of us can do the things he said we would do, or perceive the divine as he did. We are damned to return to animate the flesh once more. That would be you and me in case it is not clear. It is not enough to believe, the Holy Spirit must descend and “we must raise up the serpent in the desert” to remove the darkness from our eyes, and perceive Christ.
“12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?”
Jesus clearly states our inability to perceive the things of the spirit, seeing as we have so much difficulty with the mundane earthly concepts.
“13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. “
Our (and Jesus’s) origin is divine. Our return to the divine, implies origin from divine, through earth, and back to divine. If the branch does not bear fruit, it shall be pruned (damned) and we shall return to earth again.
“ 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up”
Moses was also a miracle worker and could perceive the living word of God. He conforms to the symbolic manifestation of the Star of David. The Holy Spirit descended upon him and he raised up the serpent(s) of Kundalini. After that he was holy and powerful and not deceived by the five senses. He could work miracles. This line implies that each individual must do similar spiritual work that Moses did to overcome his dark perceptions.
“15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.”
If you do not complete this work, you shall perish, which is to descend once again into flesh.
“16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
We are not doomed, for God has sent his exemplar, Jesus Christ, not created, but begotten directly of God, to hasten our ascent.
“17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
To believe on Jesus (Christ nature) implies you see Christ in him, and not just the flesh Jesus. If you believe not, then this implies you do not perceive the name, which is to say the true identity, which is divinity.
“19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.”
Darkness and the things of darkness such as power, greed, lust, money, self- righteousness, vanity, violence, even religious hierarchies…
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
We hide from the light by hardening our hearts and crystallize our beliefs onto sterile pieces of paper, until the presence of God cannot be heard anymore.
You state:
“I have always been, and will never die. The body I inhabit..” Are you an Absolute Being that has the power to put life on a body? “The bodies will die. I will not.”
Why would you choose to inhabit a body if you think that it will one day die? Can you not understand that your notion of belief drastically degrades the very dignity of man by just considering the body as a product of million years of evolution? Much like an animal or an insect.
Of what import is the dignity of the body? Our bodies are constructed from the cooled elements of stars from billions of years ago. The truth does not require human notional approval to remain true. The body has evolved exactly as the rest of life on earth has, especially most recently, hominids. You can take the gene structure of a bird, and modify and add a few gene branches, and the result will be a human fetus. This modification cannot be achieved technically yet, but 90% of the needed branches exist already in the bird genetic structure. Our flesh has evolved from a common root to all other life forms on earth.
We (Homo sapiens) happen to be highly evolved enough to begin responding to the higher functions of spiritual intelligence. Jesus, Moses, and some Saints are examples of rare cases that have demonstrated true spiritual intelligence and power. You and I, however, have a lot of work to do. No free lunch. No free rides to heaven.
You state:
“I guess common sense and logic will not make me a cripple and our other friend will somehow be pacified because I did not rephrase any catholic doctrine for this reply.”
I do not really understand what you meant here.
You state:
“Oh one more thing, if the word of gods cannot be written or heard by ears, do you consider yourself as god? Because if not, then you might have “heard or read” your doctrine (“…THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GODS…”). Or if yes, you don’t need to use the phrases from “tao te ching-lao-tse.” [Do not use the thoughts of others as a crutch, you are not a cripple. (Posted by: Bill on March 11, 2004 02:10 AM)]”
I thought you would eventually get me on this point. The truth is that we need culture to grow up correctly, else we would all think like animals. It is our diverse cultures that have raised us out of the animal world. But our cultural myths and beliefs are not equivalent to spiritual truths. Cultures involve beliefs that engender group behavior that lead to the success or failure of that group. The beliefs of the group do not have to be true, they only have to lead to the success of the group for the belief to continue. This is why mythologies are so persistent. They are good for the group survival.
You will notice that biblical text, the Tao Te Ching, The Upanishads, Gnostic Scriptures, Bhagavad-Gita, Koran tell us of the way to find truths, like a road map, but they never tell us any spiritual truth except as allegories. That is because words are earthly abstractions. They cannot communicate the ephemeral spirit onto paper. I will admit that I, as you, have “heard or read” text that have influenced me. I will not admit to the “crutch” concept, because I have listened carefully to the quiet voice within and though I am not perfect, I remain receptive to the pull of Christ.
Peace,
Bill
You state: “…I will admit that I, as you, have “heard or read” text that have influenced me. I will not admit to the “crutch” concept, because I have listened carefully to the quiet voice within and though I am not perfect, I remain receptive to the pull of Christ.”
I am truly amazed in the intricacies of how you “try” to explain yourself “to the quiet voice within” you. As I have said, you are a freethinker. Ubiquitously spirited. Indeed, you have admitted that you have read or heard the concept of your position, but you did not admit that you are using or have used them. Your position in our discussion focuses on different types of belief that are equal with each other. You also have leveled the Religion of Jesus Christ as equal with other religions. Ecumenism.
I am really puzzled to that “quiet voice within” or “nameless and divine” because I really do not know it and, because, you never really want to identify it. We all know that almost all living beings have a “name” to have a proper identification. How can we lift up our hearts to something which we really don’t know what it is?
The Magisterium of my Catholic Faith teaches us that there is danger if you want to interpret the Bible “privately.” Because the tendency is to interpret it to one’s own limited human understanding. The fruits of this are the different Christian sects that appeared like mushrooms.
You state:
“You assume to know the mind of God, interesting. You assume or have been told (over and over, a cult training method, forgive me) that God became Man. You try to place the holy where it cannot be, inside the flesh and on a piece of paper, where you can read about it (over and over). Do not so confuse Jesus with Christ. Of Christ there is no writing that can be relied on.”
My friend I guess these statements summarizes your idea of belief in God. And I guess, also, the summary of our dialogue. These four (4) line paragraph is in direct contradiction and offense to my belief as a Traditional Roman Catholic. We have no more things to say because we will never have a meeting of mind and belief. I am not to convert you in anyway during our dialogue because only the grace of God can convert a person, even the most hardened hearts.
I believe that you’re a good person and I think that you’re the kind of person who love’s to read. I just wish that you also read, aside from those forbidden books that you’ve read, the books about the Roman Catholic Church and the crisis that is going on within the church. Maybe just for the sake of curiosity. May God help you to sanctify this holy week. I bid you farewell my friend.
Oh Mary, Refuge of Sinners, Pray for us.
Oh Mary conceived without sin, Pray for us who have recourse to thee.
LEX ORANDI, LEX CREDENDI
The Law of Prayer is the Law of Belief
AD MAJOREM DEI GLORIAM
Arleingh
Arleingh,
You must do what you think is right, that is your choice and responsibility. The same holds true with me. The major religions have helped pull us from the animal world into the world of men. Without them we would be lost. It is honorable to defend what you believe.
Thank you again for your thoughts. Peace.
Bill
Jesus’s body was removed from the cross during the terror reign of Puntius Pilatus (26-36 ac), the Roman commissioner in the occupied territories of Judea. Pilatus was appointed by Tiberius, but was later deposed due to his extreme cruelty to the civilian population living under his responsibility.
Please refer to the Website
Eitan.
Is the DVD on Passion out yet?
I have heard so much about the movie and i believe it is a great one. I do hope to watch it soon anyway. The movie is winning and converting souls world-wide. I don’t understand why any should criticize it.
Actually, jesus’ body was only removed from the cross because of a jewish holiday, otherwise the body would have been left there to rot. That’s the way they did things. If it weren’t for passover, his body would have rotted there.
The sacrifice is commonly thought to be His death; but if we really pay attention to how it transpired we will find that His sacrifice was His life and not His death. His last words before he died were “it is finished,” implieing that His mission was complete before His death, implieing that His sacrifice was His life. Or he would of said “it is finished” when He rose the third day. Spirituality implies growth or there would be no point to it. That means that as the spirit grows, so does our knowledge of it. That means that by logical consecuence the truths of yesterday are not neccessarally the truths of today and if we really comprehend the true meaning of the ten commandments, the biggest sin of them all, is to ignore truth. We must also realize that Truths cannot be created, they can only discovered. It was the giving up of the comodaties of heaven to suffer in the flesh that was the sacrifice, because by definition sacrifice is the giving up of something for something else and God cannot die; but He could how ever and did, give up all that He had in heaven, to come suffer here with us, if only for a while. But this in no way is intended as an insult to Mr. Gibson and his awsome job and vision on “the Passion of the Christ.” Our intent should never be to challenge the facts, but instead to merely challenge there explinations.